[Drama Chat] Great dramas with disgraceful first episodes
by Dramaddictally
After such a stellar chat last week about great dramas with great first episodes, we’re on to the obvious opposite topic: great dramas that did not start out great at all. We’re talking about those shows with misleading first episodes — the ones that made you question whether or not you wanted to keep watching — but that just got better and better as the episodes went on.
For me, one such show is Run On. I LOVE this drama. It’s one that I’ve always planned to rewatch one day, and that I don’t think got nearly enough love when it aired. (Although, it might’ve gained a little dedication from Kang Tae-oh followers after Extraordinary Attorney Woo. He’s just as adorable here.)
But great as I think this drama is, the first episode is terrible. I mean, it’s a good thing I did not start watching until Week 3 when I had enough episodes to binge because otherwise I would have shut this thing off and never turned back. It’s disjointed and campy — maybe even a little cringe — and it really doesn’t match the tone of the later episodes once the story hits its stride. In the opening episode, we have our female lead pouring beer over the head of a drunkenly out-of-order professor and our hero holding a gun. With that start, I would never have expected the warm-and-cozy comforter of a story that this ended up being — with all its lovely life lessons tucked into the folds.
What dramas do you consider great that started out crappy but got better as they went along?
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1 jillian
June 16, 2024 at 5:06 AM
Perfect Marriage Revenge. I didnt like the first episode. If a beanie didnt suggest to watch ep2 first then go back to ep1, I wouldnt continue watching this show past ep1.
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🌸 Seeker 🌸
June 16, 2024 at 5:45 AM
🤣 I was hooked to PMR from the get go but I totally appreciate your POV.
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miso
June 16, 2024 at 7:20 AM
I agree with this. I actually only read the recap for Ep. 1 and watched Ep. 2 onwards because that kind of shrill makjang is really not my thing.
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♡Peach_Mochi♡
June 16, 2024 at 9:21 AM
Me too. I didn't feel the need to watch the FL get totally dumped on (we know that's the whole premise already), so I started on Ep. 2.
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Cecee is done DramaQueening
June 19, 2024 at 2:20 AM
But she was so on-dumpeable, though. She's got the personality of a boiled turnip
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jillian
June 16, 2024 at 5:59 PM
Exactly. It was uncomfortabe to see her being abused by the ppl around her. I tried watching ep1 first but stopped at the party at the gallery. I had enough watching her be a doormat.
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jerrykuvira
June 16, 2024 at 10:40 AM
This was one of the dramas where I was very much glad to wait for the recaps before watching.
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jillian
June 17, 2024 at 4:57 AM
Why did you wait for recaps?
For me, once I read recaps I rarely watch the episode anymore since I already know what happened.
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jerrykuvira
June 17, 2024 at 6:31 AM
It immediately let me know I was not to watch the first episode.
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jillian
June 19, 2024 at 11:02 AM
Good point.
K-BearLovesDramas
June 26, 2024 at 9:08 AM
Me too 😂😂😂😂😂
The saw some clips on YT of episode 1 and immediately became afraid. Beanies really helped change my mind 🤣🤣
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jillian
June 26, 2024 at 10:47 AM
It was a great series and PMR ep1 can scare ppl off 😊 good thing Beanies were able to change ur mind.
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2 skelly
June 16, 2024 at 5:17 AM
Two of my favorite dramas, Coffee Prince and City Hall, both have initial episodes filled with slapstick and low-brow humor, and if that isn't your cup of tea (it was rough going for me) it's easy to be turned off. It takes awhile for the fabulousness to develop.
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PYC
June 18, 2024 at 6:16 AM
Agreed. City Hall is particularly grating for the first few episodes and it takes me until Ep 4 and 5 to feel its magic before it became a no-return all time favorite of mine. @skelly, I recall you were live-watching back then and part of the DB discussion.
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skelly
June 24, 2024 at 4:05 PM
Sure was! Fun times indeed.
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3 Bunny Sonaki
June 16, 2024 at 5:36 AM
I will go check my list and come back. I just came to petition a chat about crappy dramas with great first episodes. This will be a chat to remember.
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Ally
June 17, 2024 at 6:30 PM
I’ll be here for that!! I have one or two. But mainly one. 😆
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4 Seon-ha
June 16, 2024 at 5:42 AM
First of all, here's to the Run On shout-out, @dramaddictally!!! I hope you give it the time for a rewatch--for myself, I usually start at episode 3 because I don't need to see Lee Jung-ha get beat up (ever) again. Ugh. The rage.
My contribution to this particular chat is only a partial match, though, because I note on my list that if I don't like the first episode of a drama, I'm also usually not likely to like the end of the drama (I'm looking at YOU Wedding Impossible) so that doesn't count as a "great drama."
But LTNS was a short drama that started with a messy opening episode that left you with the impression of "What's all this then??" But then it got better and more nuanced with each successive episode until one was left with the impression of a thoughtful drama that wanted to build up to its conclusion. The acting performances of Esom and
Ahn Jae-hong are also, of course, fantastic.
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Grand Sophy
June 16, 2024 at 12:08 PM
LTNS?
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Seon-ha
June 16, 2024 at 1:08 PM
Yes, it may look like I'm abbreviating the name of a longer drama (and I sort of am) but the show is officially known as LTNS: https://www.dramabeans.com/shows/ltns/
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5 Bunny Sonaki
June 16, 2024 at 5:42 AM
I will take the risk and say, a great drama with crappy opening eps or let's say less interesting than the rest of the drama is The Matchmakers. The first episode was boring and I almost dropped it and it isn't until the Maeng sisters were formally introduced that the story grew on me. Make no mistake the drama is one of my favourites but its opening week needed a push.
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Seon-ha
June 16, 2024 at 5:47 AM
I don't think it's "risky" to say that you didn't like the first episode of Matchmakers! It's dreamy and tonal and not particularly plot-filled. It's not a drama that announced its intentions very quickly. I remember feeling like it wasn't clear how they'd fill out 16 whole episodes--but they sure did!
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al118
June 18, 2024 at 1:52 PM
Agree. It was a rare K-drama where I found the secondary characters and primary villain, both in terms of their stories as well as performances, much more interesting than the main leads. It was therefore a slog until the Maeng sisters appeared, even though it was beautifully shot.
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6 🌸 Seeker 🌸
June 16, 2024 at 5:42 AM
Full House. Even in 2004 no one could accuse the drama of being great 😉 but it was my gateway drama and I'm feeling nostalgic about Rain. The first episode was enough to scare anybody away from K-dramas. Glad our family persevered. My mother giving strict instructions to Rain on how to behave properly was another memorable off-screen drama we all remember fondly till date.
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Midnight
June 16, 2024 at 7:34 AM
Back then it was all or nothing for nearly every first episode!! 😂🤦🏻♀️
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🌸 Seeker 🌸
June 16, 2024 at 7:37 AM
True dat! 😂
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7 Snow Flower
June 16, 2024 at 5:51 AM
The first episode of Healer is not bad, but I remember being confused on my first watch. Who is working for whom? Whose DNA sample is everybody after? But I kept watching because of the Knitting Hacker Ahjumma.
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wonhwa
June 16, 2024 at 6:04 AM
I also thought Healer took several episodes to find its rhythm - I wasn't sure what all the hype was about until around episode 4.
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Kas61
June 18, 2024 at 5:20 PM
Yes, it was possible to be put off by that godawful wig that Healer wears when he first goes undercover at the cafe...
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Cecee is done DramaQueening
June 19, 2024 at 2:33 AM
I can suffer through the wig. But the obsession the drama has with playing only one song to accompany all scenes no matter what the current emotion is... Nah. Healer's good. But ffs, who worked on the music?
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8 wonhwa
June 16, 2024 at 6:00 AM
Return of Iljimae and Fermentation Family are two dramas that ended up being lovely despite alarmingly bad first episodes. In terms of more recent shows, Stranger season 2 is an example of a drama where it seemed like literally nothing was happening for the first 5-6 episodes until the writer suddenly started to pull all the various random threads together. It ended up being one of my all-time favorite shows, and in some ways I think it's more brilliant than season 1, but if I hadn't already been attached to the characters and trusted the screenwriter I probably would have dropped it.
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9 kay4625
June 16, 2024 at 7:13 AM
Healer: I wouldn't call this bad, but quite frankly, I understood very little about that first episode. Funny enough, I was so confused after episode 1, that I was looking for a summary of it, which is actually how I ended up discovering Dramabeans. So maybe the confusing first episode was a good thing after all?
I don't really have any other examples. Usually when I don't like the first episode, I won't even watch the second one, and sometimes I might not even finish the first episode. There's too much stuff to watch, and not enough time to watch multiple episodes of something I may or may not end up liking after all.
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10 Healer’s
June 16, 2024 at 7:26 AM
I watched Reply 1988 a long time ago and have forgot almost everything about episode 1 plotwise, but what I remember is that there was a lot of shouting and hitting, and I remember disliking it. But if I'm not mistaken, the end of episode 1 was Deoksun's grandma's funeral, and the scene when Deoksun's dad and his brother hugging each other and crying gave me teary eyes, and that's when I decided to continue. It ended up in my fav list of all time.
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zindigo
June 16, 2024 at 7:41 AM
This is really helpful Claire! I didn't finish ep 1 for exactly these reasons and never went back. I couldn't imagine why people raved about it, and I've never heard anyone talk about a rough first episode. Perhaps I'll give it a try again. Some day 😉
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Healer’s
June 17, 2024 at 4:06 AM
Two friends of mine dropped it at ep1 for the same reasons and they never went back 😅 One can finish it and still doesn't like it much, but really there's much more to it than the shouting and hitting, which became very minor in the later episodes.
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Isa is always time travelling
June 16, 2024 at 10:35 AM
I have to give it another try because I only watched the first episode two years ago (with all the sound effects, non-stop cringe, shouting... and Netflix blurring almost everything 😑).
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Midnight
June 16, 2024 at 10:41 AM
Reply 88 is very slice-of-life. Just normal days in the characters's lives. You can start at ep 3 where the show has better found its groove.
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Isa is always time travelling
June 16, 2024 at 10:46 AM
I'm sure the drama is very good. In fact, the team behind it is the same in Prison Playbook and Hospital Playlist, and I love these dramas.
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11 Olive
June 16, 2024 at 7:53 AM
Fugitive plan B. Loved the drama but many extra characters in ep 1 are boring.
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Midnight
June 16, 2024 at 8:07 AM
Lovely seeing Fugitive being remembered!
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Olive
June 17, 2024 at 1:27 AM
The good old days of Kdramas :)
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12 Elinor, Team Glasses team co-captain
June 16, 2024 at 7:54 AM
Gaus Electronics. The first episode had so much cartoonish "comedic" violence and made the FL look like such an abusive a**hole that I almost didn't continue, but fortunately there were many recap comments from later episodes that let me know that wasn't the whole story. The second episode turned it around into the little show that could - clever, funny, absurd, sexy, and sweet. One of my all-time favorites.
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Reply1988 -❣️Mother Bean❣️
June 16, 2024 at 9:00 AM
I agree I nearly left Gaus electronics during the first episode and it left me unable to warm to the female lead for the rest of the series so whilst I enjoyed it I did not care about her or her issues AT ALL.
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♡Peach_Mochi♡
June 16, 2024 at 9:14 AM
I have yet to watch the first episode of Gaus. I picked it up in Ep. 2 after reading comments (including warnings) and was glad I did. A good workplace comedy is to be treasured! But I wonder if I would've felt differently about the characters, especially the FL, if I'd seen the premiere.
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yayabean
June 16, 2024 at 6:52 PM
Oh! I dropped it for all the reasons you described on episode 1. Will retake it on episode 2! Thanks.
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Reply1988 -❣️Mother Bean❣️
June 16, 2024 at 9:54 PM
Please do let us know how you get on with it on a What we are watching thread☺️
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jillian
June 17, 2024 at 4:52 AM
Oh yeah I remember disliking the FL in the first episode but my love for Kwak Dong Yeon (in his first lead role!) was the reason that I gave her the chance to redeem herself. They did end up a cute couple.
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13 Linarrick
June 16, 2024 at 8:01 AM
This is going to be controversial, however I wouldn’t call the first episode disgraceful, and maybe it was just how I personally felt at a specific moment in time, but the first episode of TWINKLING WATERMELON gave me heart palpitations. The near death experiences gave me anxiety, especially as I didn’t really know the reason for the time travel, I assumed it was because someone from the family died. Anyway I’m glad I gave it another shot as it’s the best drama I watched all year, and if I watched it last year it would’ve been my pick for the best 2023 drama.
Another example is GAUS ELECTRONICS. I watched the first episode and immediately dropped it. Only from beanie buzz did I decide to continue as I’ve read that it got much better. Well it’s one of my favourite comedies, which is a feat considering I rarely enjoy the office/corporate workplace genre
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14 jerrykuvira
June 16, 2024 at 9:02 AM
Disgraceful you say? That skews the number of dramas I want to crucify to a minimum. I'm going to assume anything but great and give my response.
The first is Gaus Electronics. This one was not just about the first episode, it was about the premiere episodes. Save for Baek Ma-tan of Power Group's iconic entry, an entry that I can bet 10000000000% King The Land copied, the premiere week was ruined by the female lead. This hasn't stopped me from recommending this to people, and gosh! They've all loved it, I warn them not to watch the first two episodes. Infact, I don't have the premiere week in my storage.
Perfect Marriage Revenge - This was one of the dramas that premiered at the time when I was already pissed with the narrative trend in kdramas. Perfect Marriage Revenge was a ride. But, thanks to my intuition telling me to read the recaps first before watching, I was angry just reading the recaps. It was no use seeing how magnified the anger will be if I watch it. Thankfully, the time travel happened in the first episode, and I'm going to give them full credit for doing that. So I began right at episode 2. And, it was a blast.
Family: The Unbreakable Bond - This was one expected drama that ruined its first week thanks to translation. It seemed like autobots were responsible for that week's subtitles so it was all over the place. It was so bad that the subtitle ruined the writing, direction, and even execution of the script. And in truth, Jang Hyuk, Jang Na-ra and Chae Jung-ahn could not save Family from the disgrace the subtitling caused in the first week. For those who skipped because of this, let me say it only got better right at episode 3.
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Reply1988 -❣️Mother Bean❣️
June 16, 2024 at 5:23 PM
Family:The unbreakable bond I agree the subs in episode one were really bad 😲
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15 parkchuna 🍉
June 16, 2024 at 9:38 AM
Hands down, without a doubt “A Piece Of Your Mind”. It wasn’t disgraceful, just very confusing, off and quite concerning at first? But it turned out to be one of my favorite Jung Hae In / Chae Soo Bin drama and i was sad it was cut down to 12 episodes. Probably took a tad too long for the drama to set its tone and allow viewers to figure out what it was on about.
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16 panshel
June 16, 2024 at 10:09 AM
Doctor Slump. I wouldn't call its first episode "crappy," but Truck of Doom makes an appearance in the first three minutes, and our leads don’t start out as very likable. The ML comes off as a spoiled rich kid making the 2ML pull out his chair and pour his wine, and the FL is in denial of having depression and throws away her medication. But by the second episode, she comes to accept it and picks up her meds from the trash, and he learns to rebuild his life after hitting rock bottom, and they both become so endearing and relatable. It's really a great healing drama that will make you sob.
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Midnight
June 16, 2024 at 10:22 AM
I agree with every word. I only went past ep 1 because I was determined to give it at least 2-3 episodes. And it became the healing drama for me.
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panshel
June 16, 2024 at 2:42 PM
In her defense, I have to clarify that she actually picked up her meds from the trash in the same scene, but the show just didn't reveal it until the beginning of the next episode. I felt really sorry for dumping on her the episode before when that was revealed.
It is definitely my healing drama of the year, and the OTP one of my favorite OTPs of the year.
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Minnie🫘👩🏻🚀Pioneer and Teacher 👩🏻🏫🌱🏹
June 16, 2024 at 7:53 PM
This is interesting. I had no complaints about Ep 1st, but my son hated the first two episodes and dropped it. Then he came for his summer break and I told him to give it another try and we all watched it as a family. He ended up falling in love with it. My husband and son ended up watching ep 11-15 again while I rolled my eyes at them 😂
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Reply1988 -❣️Mother Bean❣️
June 16, 2024 at 9:49 PM
I love that you watched it as a family and that they loved it so much they did a rewatch of key episodes straight away together😆. So pleased for you that they loved it just as much as you.
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Minnie🫘👩🏻🚀Pioneer and Teacher 👩🏻🏫🌱🏹
June 17, 2024 at 5:57 AM
Thank you ❤️ It's been my husband's healing drama. He keeps watching it on the loop even now. And while I loved it too, I don't watch it with him as much. I think each of us at times identifies with something that hits them right.
I guess I do not have any beef with any of the K-drama tropes, TOD included so the 1st episode wasn't an issue.
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Cecee is done DramaQueening
June 19, 2024 at 2:36 AM
No, no no, Truck of Doom makes an appearance and doesn't kill. I feel this is commendable. Truck of Doom deserves a little medal for actually using the fucking brakes for once.
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17 kd6606
June 16, 2024 at 10:44 AM
This is true for my gateway drama Thank-you. In fact, given availability at the time, I didn't have a chance to watch it until I had already watched the rest of the drama multiple times. In retrospect, this was probably good. The first episode might have stopped me from watching the rest, which may have meant no kdrama addiction for me! To this day, when recommending this drama I tell friends to skip episode 1.
Nowadays, I often start on later episodes to see if I will like a drama, and then go back to episode 1 to get the backstory. The first episodes are often not that great.
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18 tabong is ironing the crosswalk
June 16, 2024 at 10:55 AM
Nothing comes to mind.
But I do have favorite dramas that I always rewatch starting from episode 2.
W
Mr Queen
Oh My Ghostess
I just like the chaos. And in fantasy that chaos usually starts in episode 2. Episode 1 feels kind of boring to watch when I already know what's the charm of the show.
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Midnight
June 16, 2024 at 10:58 AM
Me too. I start most of my rewatches from ep 2.
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19 Diana Hansen
June 16, 2024 at 12:14 PM
I was feeling just this way watching Midnight Romance in Hagwon and it took me several episodes to really catch the fever but boy I love it now! The description and title did not seem to fit the first episodes as they were all about charter schools/problems but I see it differently now as it all comes together as the story gets going to the slow/ soft/ yet persistent romance heating up nicely as they realize a few things about themselves.
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20 Lostpanda is celebrating My Ajusshi 💔
June 16, 2024 at 12:26 PM
Crash Landing on You
I hated the first episode and dropped it. Picked it up years later and realized the error of my ways.
My Mister
First 3 episodes were a snooze fest. I got sucked in before I realized what was happening.
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yayabean
June 16, 2024 at 6:58 PM
Lol..I dropped Crash Landing on You too! I found the first episode lame. However, I have yet to pick it. And most likely I wont.
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🌸 Seeker 🌸
June 16, 2024 at 10:27 PM
Well all I can say in its defense is that CLOY is a rare Hyun Bin drama that is watchable for his respectful treatment of the FL. 😊
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Bunny Sonaki
June 17, 2024 at 4:46 AM
My first for him was Secret Garden 😂😂😂 typical cold male lead from the days of yore.
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🌸 Seeker 🌸
June 17, 2024 at 5:44 AM
A beanie level may be dedicated to Joo-won and his sequined designer track suit hand stitched in Italy but the ML was as detestable as the FL was adorable. Uri strong stunt woman Gil Ra-im was my girl crush before I even knew what that world meant. I really really want a beanie level to be named after her.
🌸 Seeker 🌸
June 17, 2024 at 5:45 AM
* that
worldword 🤣🤣🤣Bunny Sonaki
June 17, 2024 at 6:04 AM
Hilariously, I liked his tracksuits😂😂😂 The purple one was my favorite😂😂😂
🌸 Seeker 🌸
June 17, 2024 at 6:20 AM
🤣🤣🤣 I don't blame you at all. Those track suits and the push ups in those tracks suits were ... umm, memorable indeed. 💖🎊
21 bong-soo
June 16, 2024 at 7:30 PM
I would not use the term disgraceful but I can think of three favorite dramas that suffered poor ratings imo because of the way writer-nim introduced the main characters so negatively. Some folks were probably one and done but if you hung in there until around episode 4 or 5 you found yourself a terrific drama:
1. tvN’s CHICAGO TYPEWRITER (2017)
2. MBC’s I AM NOT A ROBOT (2017/18) and
3. tvN’s A POEM A DAY (2018)
Maybe an honorable mention (for shaky first episodes) could go to
4. SBS’s YOUR HONOR (2018)
5. SBS’s CONNECTION
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🌸 Seeker 🌸
June 16, 2024 at 10:30 PM
Great list. I agree with all. 😊❤👌
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22 Minnie🫘👩🏻🚀Pioneer and Teacher 👩🏻🏫🌱🏹
June 16, 2024 at 8:01 PM
I have two:
The Matchmakers - It took me good four episodes tp warm up to it, and then fall in love with it.
Freaking Cinderella - I almost dropped it, and even though it still might go south, it has every possibility to become a sleeper gem, but I wasn't impressed with the first episode.
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23 DancingEmma
June 16, 2024 at 8:10 PM
But isn’t disgraceful a rather harsh term to use here as the dictionary definition is “shockingly unacceptable”. If something is a “shrill makjang” or “dramas that didn’t start out great at all”, these arguably aren’t tantamount to shockingly bad. Just garden variety bad. I would say “disgraceful/shockingly unacceptable” should be applied when a drama fails on multiple/all fronts: directing, writing, acting, sound/music, chemistry between the actors, set design and has bigoted/regressive social, political, cultural and economic messages and punches down.
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24 Nefret
June 17, 2024 at 1:25 AM
Not necessarily the entire first episode of KILL ME, HEAL ME, but the first scenes set in the US were shockingly bad and cringey. If I hadn't known it was going to get better, I would have dropped the drama.
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Midnight
June 17, 2024 at 1:51 AM
Agreed. Quite a few shows have this exact problem, cringey, laughable, or downright shocking foreign scenes. Jealousy Incarnate had a very bad one. King the Land's wasn't that bad but silly and cringey...
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Midnight
June 17, 2024 at 10:01 AM
In the first episode I meant.
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wonhwa
June 17, 2024 at 7:36 AM
Yes, I think k-drama writers' vision of America is a land overrun with drugs and guns and out-of-control violence, and while they aren't entirely wrong, this does lead to some quite ridiculous scenes.
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Minnie🫘👩🏻🚀Pioneer and Teacher 👩🏻🏫🌱🏹
June 17, 2024 at 8:21 AM
Stereotypes is not limited to SK writers though. Americans think all Indians are doctors or engineers, all blacks are thugs, all S Americans are drug dealers, all Latinos are illegal, all East Asians (read Chinese) are crazy rich, Russians are spies, Japanese and Italians are mafia lords....the list goes on... and Korea is only made of K-Pop idols singing Gangnam style. Oh, and they probably won't be able to find it on a map....
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Elinor, Team Glasses team co-captain
June 17, 2024 at 9:59 AM
@minniegupta1 What in the world ...
"Americans think"? Which Americans? All of them, or just the ones on this board? "Americans" includes all the ethnic/national groups you mentioned. Do you think they all share these views? And what is your comment doing if not stereotyping? Isn't it perpetuating stereotypes of Americans by repeating these generalizations (“Americans think…”) without any support?
"Japanese and Italians are mafia lords" You've painted Americans as believers in so many ugly bigoted ideas that I hardly know how to respond to all of them, but I have to call this one out in particular. The idea that all or even most Americans associate the Japanese with mob activity is just absurd. I don't know where you got that, but check your sources. There is a little more basis for saying that Italians are associated with the mafia, but that's a dated and fading stereotype. Given that over 5% of the US population is of Italian ancestry, it's far more common for people to associate an Italian name with themselves, or their friends or coworkers, or the pizza place on the corner, or actors and politicians and writers and plumbers and dentists and teachers and garbage collectors and stay-at-home parents - in other words, with the whole rest of America. Same goes for the other group identities you mentioned. Sure, stereotypes exist and are represented in the media, but you've painted with such a broad brush that the picture is unrecognizable.
"they probably won't be able to find it on a map" Who won't? Again, all Americans? For better and worse, the US's 80-year history of involvement on the Korean peninsula means that a huge number of Americans served or have family or friends who served in WW2 and the Korean War and on military bases that have existed in Korea ever since. They know where Korea is.
"the list goes on" Good god, I hope not. This is more than enough.
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too_much_tv
June 17, 2024 at 3:11 PM
Well. I wouldn't say all Americans are like this. American television writers have been known to trade in some stereotyping, though. It's more obvious for people from the US watching dramas or films from S. Korea or another country. Some of our stereotypes are pretty ingrained. I find this a big advantage in watching media from elsewhere: I can detect the stereotyping and manipulation more easily in work from another culture. Then it prompts me to come back and look at what I'm taking in from the culture around me.
Minnie🫘👩🏻🚀Pioneer and Teacher 👩🏻🏫🌱🏹
June 17, 2024 at 5:06 PM
Whoa calm down....I did forget to mention the word 'writers', so I can see how this must have come across, my bad.....the topic is stereotype writing and all ethnic groups are being stereotyped all the time. It's pretty much a snark in response to how SK writers think about America being all about guns and drugs and out of control violence - which is as far from the truth as the geographical distance between America and SK. And my point is American writers often do not fare better when they portray other people, if that helps. And all of what I wrote is gross exaggeration on purpose.
But no, of course most Americans do not think like that, if they think at all. It's so ridiculous to even consider that could be true. If it matters, majority Americans irrespective of their political opinions are some of the most accepting people in the world without any prejudice. Absolutely none. They are incredibly open to learning new things and supporting diversity. It's my personal opinion and you are free to disagree with it.
Seon-ha
June 17, 2024 at 6:23 PM
Minnie? Even if you're talking only about American writers here, this is a shocking sentence. The point is not what "the majority" of Americans do or do not do, it's that reducing millions of people to a stereotype is harmful.
Minnie🫘👩🏻🚀Pioneer and Teacher 👩🏻🏫🌱🏹
June 17, 2024 at 7:04 PM
@attitonon Seon-Ha Of course it is, and that's the point of this conversation. Writers write what they want to write, and while a lot of what they write can be perceived as accurate by those who do not know better, it does not make it true. I can tell you that guns are one of the central topics of discourse in the US today, and yes, we have a problem, but when I hear people say nowadays how people get shot everywhere like it's some kind of Wild West situation, I can only laugh because it's so ridiculous. Did our schools have to put in regulations because some have been taking guns and shooting innocents to death? Yes. Just like airport checking has gone crazy in the last two decades. Truth is, we have an amazing lot of people who work overtime to neutralise such threats.
But symptoms do not make a disease. Stereotypes are born out of perception. Before Indians became doctors and engineers, they used to ride on elephants and charm snakes. One is as ridiculous as the other, and that's what stereotype does. It happens because those who have the pen have made it a point to communicate that over and over again.
Let me narrate a very personal experience. Our dance troupe performed a semi-classical piece from India during our Labor Day town celebrations. An old resident got awfully pissed off because, as he saw it, his precious town was getting polluted by people who didn't belong (he tried to switch off our music, and all this happened while we were on stage with no clue what was happening backstage).
I cannot even tell you the number of people ready to bodily throw this gentleman out. Someone even called the police on him for causing a disturbance or something.
That's one person against hundreds. But if someone were to write about it, I do not have any doubts; they would only write about this one old whimsical man and never about the hundreds who stood up for what was right. Find five of them across the country, and you now have white old men who want to drive non whites out of their towns. Insert facepalm.
Meanwhile, remember any non-white male as a male lead in a truly large-scale production off the top of your head? No? But sidekicks? Villains? Exotic creatures? Yes? Park Seo Joon was the latest victim of that. Seeing that handsome, talented man used as an exotic prop was excruciating. It's a wonder he wasn't asked to do some kind of a 'Gangnam' style song and dance routine. But thankfully, exceptions exist, even though they do not make a rule.
I rest my case.
Gum Shoe
June 17, 2024 at 8:47 PM
With all due respect, I can name many big productions with non-white actors: Denzel Washington, Chadwick Boseman in Black Panther if you want to go MCU, Steven Yeun in Walking Dead, Beef, Nope, etc, Keanu Reeves, Simu Liu. The first casting of Bridgerton and in large part helped its success was a black man, Rene-Jean Page and the show runner was Shonda Rhimes.
So while stereotypes still exist in American media, it's a little broad to say that non-white actors are not getting big roles.
indyfan
June 17, 2024 at 9:09 PM
I thought of these @pynyc and several others besides. But if someone were to say: Yes, but Americans still have a looong way to go, with different histories, demographics and audiences than K-ent, I would 100% agree with them. It's an apples to oranges comparison between the two countries beyond, yes, stereotypes exist in just about every country, not just SK, not just the US.
I'm reminded when we discuss the treatment of women in Joseon, some Beanies remind us that women the world over were treated terribly at that time. So true. But this is a site dedicate to Korea, and using "what about" can divert us from the specific issues we are here to discuss.
So a general reminder is helpful. But a more detailed discussion on such a complex issue gets tricky and diversionary, and perhaps not a conversation suited here.
Minnie🫘👩🏻🚀Pioneer and Teacher 👩🏻🏫🌱🏹
June 17, 2024 at 9:27 PM
@pynyc Bridgerton = Shonda Rhimes. In Hollywood, no matter what your skin colour is, we all know nothing speaks like success. She was one of the lucky ones because - Grey's Anatomy.
Black Panther was based on a fictional African tribe (not taking away anything from MCU, it was beautifully done and broke lots of stereotype) but even MCU has not done enough. Why could we not have Park Seo Joon as a bonafide superhero with a story to tell? Donny Yen gave Keanu Reeves a run for his money in John Wick 4 and ate everyone else for breakfast. That brilliant actor had to wait till he was 60 to show the world what he is capable of.
Keanu Reeves - don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore the man - is as white as they come - English mother, American father, Canadian.
As for Steven Yeun - he was first Asian American to be nominated for Oscar in 2020. First. In its history of almost a century.
Let that sink in.
It took them a century to acknowledge a fellow American from East Asian background. Roles have seldom if ever been written to assimilate them in mainstream. They would rather pour money writing about Crazy Rich Asians.
While we are speaking of Asian Americans, one of the greatest act of violence in the history of America was inflicted upon the Americans of Japanese ancestry in the Second World War where more than 120,000 Japanese Americans were forced into confinement in camps. While we have seen endless movies on World war II, I do not recall, and please correct me if I am wrong, a single movie or drama on that subject. Not one. No one speaks about it, it's like it never happened. I cannot even imagine the stories that are waiting to be told, and perhaps they will never be told because honestly, no one is writing them. They would rather promote the yakuzas .
Elinor, Team Glasses team co-captain
June 18, 2024 at 12:06 AM
@minniegupta1
Shonda Rhimes is successful because she’s good, not because she’s lucky. Attributing the success of a woman or person of color to luck rather than competence or talent is a sexist and racist stereotype.
List of Academy Award winners and nominees of Asian descent. The earliest date is 1935 (Merle Oberon).
List of films about the Japanese American internment. There are dozens.
George Takei begs to differ. So did President Obama.
From Wikipedia’s Keanu Reeves page: “His American father is from Hawaii, and is of Native Hawaiian, Chinese, English, Irish, and Portuguese descent. Reeves's paternal grandmother is of Chinese and Hawaiian descent.”
This is getting embarrassing.
Minnie🫘👩🏻🚀Pioneer and Teacher 👩🏻🏫🌱🏹
June 18, 2024 at 5:27 AM
With deep respect Elinor, you are right, this is embarrassing and we should stop, because if something like twenty nominations in 100 years is best you can come up with, and think that somehow justifies the gross mistreatment meted out to people of other ancestry who do not look white, it should be embarrassing. Not to mention you conveniently ignore the fact that mainstream inclusion of such people as Shonda Rhimes has been few and far between. Shonda Rhimes is hardly the only coloured talent Hollywood has. To be fair, Hollywood hasn't treated women with white skin that much better either, which makes Rhimes success even more rewarding but it's a bitter pill. Whenever an artist has had direct connection to the grassroot people, and the powers that be know it will draw money, they have seen success. Music industry is case in point - filled with people of different creed, colour, ancestry because music is difficult to ignore and money talks.
Keanu Reeves is raised white, looks white, received the privileges of being a white, is treated white and all his mega hits are pure white characters. He is a poster child for what we Asian origin people call as "White Passing". To pick him as the Asian representative mascot is as misleading as calling President Obama white. Unfortunately he is the only one who became this successful and hence hanging onto his obscure ancestry where the man himself has always resisted being referred to as POC only showcases how far behind representation really has been.
There is no doubt post 2000 things have been better. But it's a long long road still to travel.
Minnie🫘👩🏻🚀Pioneer and Teacher 👩🏻🏫🌱🏹
June 18, 2024 at 5:52 AM
Also, thank you for the list of movies on Japanese internment, I am going to look them up. I am glad the subject was taken up, though I don't see any Japanese origin actor heading a commercial production. In the passing I read Dennis Quaid and Spencer Tracy but I could be wrong. I am trying to remember if we have a successful commercial actor of Japanese origin. Even a progressive actor like Matt Damon fell into the hell hole of whitewashing a film set in medieval China. I wonder how hard would it have been to give that production a true Asian flavour...but The Great Wall met the great wall of exclusion of Hollywood and the saga continues.....
Elinor, Team Glasses team co-captain
June 18, 2024 at 7:12 AM
@minniegupta1
The difference between your response and mine, Minnie, is that you made all of the assertions to which I responded only with facts, while I did not make any of the statements you attribute to me (none of which I believe or have said). You are making a straw man argument. It’s intellectually dishonest.
Minnie🫘👩🏻🚀Pioneer and Teacher 👩🏻🏫🌱🏹
June 18, 2024 at 7:39 AM
@elinor:
It’s intellectually dishonest.
We can agree to disagree without personal attacks, don't you think?
I am afraid Elinor your facts are woefully inadequate to justify the marked disregard of people of Asian origin (and even people of other non-white ancestry and women but I digress) in mainstream Hollywood in general and commercial movies and dramas in particular. We can go on and on, but if you want facts, here you go:
https://www.inclusionlist.org/oscars/race_ethnicity
And if you find some time, do look up the Annenberg Inclusion Initiative.
Elinor, Team Glasses team co-captain
June 18, 2024 at 8:18 AM
@minniegupta1
This is yet another straw man. Nowhere have I expressed such disregard as my own view - it isn't - or said it's justified - it isn't. Perhaps you could try a different logical fallacy, since this one is getting dull from overuse.
The sad thing is that we don't need to agree to disagree, because we *agree* that there is utterly inadequate representation and participation of non-white, non-male people and viewpoints in entertainment. That is not in any way the original focus of this exchange, however, and we’ve gotten to this point because your comments have repeatedly misdirected and responded to arguments not being made, as well as inserting irrelevant anecdotes and simply incorrect statements of fact.
Minnie🫘👩🏻🚀Pioneer and Teacher 👩🏻🏫🌱🏹
June 18, 2024 at 10:00 AM
Thank you :-) That was my only point. I only wish for a world where the writers use their power to implode stereotypes. Peace ✌️
too_much_tv
June 17, 2024 at 8:07 PM
@minniegupta1 "But no, of course most Americans do not think like that, if they think at all. " 🤣
I recall the events that brought me to watch TV (or internet videos) almost constantly, and I find your words entirely fair.
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Minnie🫘👩🏻🚀Pioneer and Teacher 👩🏻🏫🌱🏹
June 17, 2024 at 11:12 PM
@indyfan:
I guess you are right, though it would have been terrible to have misconceptions hanging in the air. But this does remind me to proofread while writing - what I think and what I end up writing could actually be two different things 😂 The perils of posting on the shot.
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Kas61
June 18, 2024 at 5:49 PM
Minnie, I just wanted to pick up on your point about Park Seo-joon. I utterly agree with you that it is very sad to see a wonderful talented leading man being reduced to a bit of exotic colour in a Hollywood movie. I understand that Song Joong-ki has been unsuccessfully auditioning in Hollywood as well. You couldn't get more handsome and charismatic leading men. It makes me sad that they feel they need to do this, that the peak of their ambition should be Hollywood. Given the quality of a lot of Hollywood's output these day, why would they bother?
Then again, you could look at what's happened to BTS. Repeated Grammy nominees but no success. I sympathise with one of the band members who rather cynically suggested that BTS get nominated and invited to perform at the Grammys to boost the show's flagging ratings (which they surely do) but with no intention of rewarding them for their achievements. And now there's word of a separate Grammys for Asia, so k-pop stars can forget about being recognised at the American Grammys.
I'm not quite sure what annoys me more -- the wonderfully talented stars of Korean stage and screen thinking they need to win over the US entertainment biz to feel like they've really made it. Or the US entertainment biz being reluctant to reward a k-pop band whose success and quality deserve it, and instead palming them off with an Asian award show.
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Minnie🫘👩🏻🚀Pioneer and Teacher 👩🏻🏫🌱🏹
June 18, 2024 at 7:19 PM
@kas61
I thought Open Thread would be a wonderful place to dive deep into this lovely discussion so I posted something there.
https://www.dramabeans.com/2024/06/open-thread-869/#comment-4200988
25 olive
June 17, 2024 at 1:26 AM
Another one: My Lovely Boxer
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26 Isa is always time travelling
June 17, 2024 at 1:51 AM
Dramas I'm glad I didn't drop, even though the first episode (or first two episodes) almost made me do it. But then I really enjoyed them until the end:
_ Psychopath Diary. Amazing how this show got better and better until the end, imo. Now it's in my Top 11.
_ Seasons of Blossom. The first episode doesn't invite to continue watching, but it's a beautiful series. The feels...
_ Webdrama Real Time Love. The beginning was so silly and amateurish... But I really enjoyed the whole series. I was hooked for days. I couldn't watch anything else.
_ My name is Kim Sam Soon. Fortunately I didn't stop after the cringey first episode. I would have missed this hoot of a show.
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27 Kurama
June 17, 2024 at 5:04 AM
Nothing to loose (Judge vs Judge)> They made the FL, a judge, acting like a crazy girl during a trial... But after, the drama showed a real nice friendship/love story between the 3 leads.
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28 technicat
June 17, 2024 at 7:28 AM
Thank You is one of my all-time favorites, but I found the first episode really off-putting, with Jang Hyuk going beyond even the usual sure-he's-a-jerk-now-but-you're-going-to-love-him-later and Choi Kang Hee not getting to do much. The end of that episode is poignant, though, that's where I feel the series really starts.
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29 Maelstrom
June 17, 2024 at 11:06 AM
Hospital Playlist. I found the first episode super confusing as to who was who, how did they know each other, what was everyone's specialties again, when was the guy from Oh My Ghostess going to show up (Jo Jung-Seok, whom I now adore), etc. And not to mention sifting through the medical jargon on top of it all. But once the five friends finally met up again, the show came together and voila! Magic.
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Kas61
June 18, 2024 at 5:52 PM
Agreed. That first episode was full of confusing stuff about who was going to run the hospital, and it wasn't until the reveal that the children of the dead chairman were all priests/nuns and that the doctors themselves didn't know that their paediatrics friend was the hidden heir to the kingdom -- only then did it start to grab me.
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30 Nessa (Bebe) 🌹
June 17, 2024 at 3:45 PM
In recent years— because my memory to remember things from waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy back isn’t the same anymore— it’s got to be my beloved, my whole heart and soul, the C-drama, The Untamed:
I remember being so confused and bored by the premiere episode and wasn’t sure what other Beanies—whom were also watching or had just finished watching at the time— were talking about and why it was being praised to the high heavens. Boy, I have never been so glad to be so wrong about a drama and was glad I went back to it later (ahem 2 weeks later, to be precise 😅), and I’ve never looked back, nor has life ever been the same! I think re-watched the drama about 15-16 times after my very first watching of it (albeit, some of those times, it wasn’t a re-watching of the entire drama, just bits and pieces). Even after all these years— it’s been 5, the drama was released in 2019– it still holds a very special spot in my heart and the things I took from it still cross my mind, but I will say that I have not done another re-watching of the drama for about 2 years now, because I just cannot afford to go down that bottomless rabbit hole anymore like I used to ♥️
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Nessa (Bebe) 🌹
June 17, 2024 at 3:47 PM
I don’t think this has happened to me with K-dramas in recent years:
1. Because I hardly watch K-dramas anymore
2. If I drop a K-drama, it’s a complete drop, I don’t tend to go back to them again
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Maelstrom
June 17, 2024 at 5:14 PM
Pretty much the same with me, I had no idea what was going on in my first viewing - it wasn't until I massively spoiled myself on TVTropes (for both the drama and manga) that any of it made sense, lol. And within the first several months of my original viewing I kept going back and dipping in to watch my favorite scenes again. But, like you, I find that now I just don't have the emotional energy to dive into that world again, no matter how well done the drama was. It belongs to a specific point of my life, like a memory trapped in amber.
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Nessa (Bebe) 🌹
June 17, 2024 at 5:44 PM
♥️
That’s okay! Everyone’s different, everyone has their own distinct life and drama-watching experiences and phases, but that’s the beauty of it all 😊
There’s just so much, subjectively, from what I got out of the drama and I think these things will resonate with me for a very long time. I am a firm believer that many people will have that one very specific and special show, drama, book, etc. which (will) resonate with them deep into their soul, and The Untamed is the one for me. There will be times when we are able to pick it apart and give out a laundry list of reasons why we resonate with the work, and on off days, all we will be able to muster for reasoning is “…just because…”, and I think there’s a beauty in that. Some say that whenever we come to really and truly love a person, then we don’t really necessarily NEED a reason for it, but at the same time, we may be able to list reasons. I think the same applies for the things that we come to love, too, and which resonates with our souls 😊
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Maelstrom
June 17, 2024 at 9:12 PM
I realized I forgot to explicitly state in my previous post that once I got into the show and understood the story, I really fell in love with Untamed, too. Oops! Anyway, I agree that there are some stories that touch you so deeply that they really do become part of your soul. And that show just had that perfect, magical combination of elements to speak to so many of us. 💖
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Nessa (Bebe) 🌹
June 17, 2024 at 9:39 PM
I agree!! 😊😊♥️
31 Ally
June 17, 2024 at 4:40 PM
I’m going to say QOTs because his joy about him having a way out of his marriage by her dying was a bit much. And the drama ended up being so much better than the first episodes.
I liked Gaus Electronics’ opening so much because it didn’t take itself seriously and was most obviously satire. But if you missed that and thought they were being serious, that would have been a turn off. But that show was amazing satire overall. I loved it.
Moonlight drawn by clouds. I’ll admit, I didn’t think I’d like it that much until PBG fell into the trap. 😂 He sold it then and there.
Call it Love— First episode is forgettable. Hair pulling, yelling, all the standard loud women, usually a turn off for me. Also the coloring of it many had to be desensitized to. I watched it on a regular TV and had no problems with it. The writing ended up being the best thing about the show.
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32 Im Byung Chul
June 17, 2024 at 6:42 PM
For me, Queen of Tears didn't start out great and I was watching the first couple of episodes more as background noise than as a binge watch. I'm not sure if it was my mood or frame of mind or Soo Hyun playing what seemed to be a bit of a slimeball character and Ji-Won not coming off very likeable, but I had a hard time getting through the first episode or two. I'm not sure when it kicked in, but I ended up becoming totally hooked on the story and character development and it ended up becoming one of my drama faves.
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33 beffels
June 19, 2024 at 8:16 PM
I’m late to this chat but here’s some notables I’ve dragged from my memory -
Jealousy Incarnate was a real struggle to get past episode one; I think I had to try a couple of times then it turned out good.
Shopping King Louis everyone raved about and i found it such hard work at the start. I only managed to get through the start because I’d just watched Hello Monster so I wanted more Seo In Guk 😄 but after about five episodes it really gets good and I could see why everyone liked it.
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34 K-BearLovesDramas
June 26, 2024 at 9:26 AM
Ah, was expecting this after the Favorite First Episodes list.
And now, after taking cover (so I will not be smacked), here's my list:
1. She Was Pretty - stop shouting NaDae Jung Eum Nim (Hwang Jung Eum)!!!
2. Hometown Chacha - There, I said it. Hated the FL 😤 until episode 4-5
3. Suspicious Partner - hmmm 😐
4. My Golden Life - successfully dropped after episode 1. Hurray 🎉
5. Gu Family Book - Episode 1 was too sad. I cried like a goat 🥹
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