Mr. Queen: Episodes 17-18 Open Thread

105 February 9, 2021February 9, 2021

by missvictrix

In the tumultuous world of the Joseon court, one day you’re on top, and the next you’re at the mercy of your enemies, pushed to the edge of a cliff. Sometimes quite literally. As our court conflicts reach an all-new high, we’re looking at quite a lot of drama, heartbreak, and some sacrifices for the greater good.

EPISODES 17-18 WEECAP

Jang So-yong is in quite a funk over her pregnancy. Though the entire court is rejoicing (well, except for the antis), she’s understandably confused, overwhelmed, and experiencing her identity crisis all the more.

In contrast, Cheoljong is on top of the world with an heir on the way, a queen he loves and trusts, and the power in his hands to take back Joseon. Alas, the power-hungry evil doers in the court are not okay with this, and never seem to stop.

A rumor is quickly released in the palace, and it spreads like wildfire: So-yong’s baby is not Cheoljong’s – it’s Byung-in’s. We all know that’s bunk, but how do our king and queen try to prove it? Like a bunch of teenagers, carrying on with fake PDAs in public, trying to change the court’s collective perception.

It’s mostly for hijinks and comedy at this point, but actually the show makes a pretty sharp statement about rumor versus truth when the grand queen dowager declares that, “What everyone believes will become the truth.” However, this rumor turns out to be the least of our couple’s troubles, because deeper and darker games are afoot. Undermining the royal heir was only the beginning.

The queen dowager is scrambling for power with her clan, but it’s really the grand queen dowager that comes back like a boomerang. She negotiates with Byung-in, and quickly claws her way back into power. With the snap of her fingers, all the corrupt officials are back, and everything Cheoljong was working for is inverted. Talk about frustrating!

Why can’t Cheoljong fight back against this? Because he is in their crosshairs, in a serious way. Byung-in has linked him to the rebel uprising, imprisoned his loyal men, and forced Cheoljong to go on the run (under the ruse of quelling the uprising). For Cheoljong, it’s the only way to save So-yong and protect his child, so it’s an easy — though heavy — choice for him to make.

What was most interesting to me this week was this new side of Byung-in we are seeing. Every week this man gets worse. But what’s interesting about Byung-in is that he stills seems to be driven by his “love” for So-yong. He wants to protect her and her baby’s life with the same fervor Cheoljong does (or claims he does) — but because of where they stand on the political spectrum, this protection looks very different for each of them.

This dynamic changes a bit this week, though, when So-yong confronts Byung-in even more strongly than she did when spurning his affection. She boldly tells him she’s not the So-yong he loved in the past, and even questions why he didn’t pick up on how different she is now. This is interesting, because it seems to connect some dots that Byung-in was unable to on his own. If his beloved So-yong isn’t So-yong and there’s an imposter in her place… that imposter is an enemy.

I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again: Mr. Queen is so, so good at cliffhangers! And this week they were especially good, as the drama circled back to the same high-stakes moment for both of our leads, making for some nice, tight storytelling. And an exciting watch.

The first cliffhanger, at the end of Episode 17, is with Byung-in and Cheoljong facing off (again). They’re out of the palace, so the gloves are off, and they fight pretty fiercely. Cheoljong is soon over-powered, though, and facing death at Byung-in’s hands, he dives off the cliff into the sea instead.

Word of the king’s “death” quickly reaches the court, and again we see the swift power of information (or perhaps, misinformation) as it circulates and has some serious consequences. The grand queen dowager and her cronies are quick to declare the king dead and take over — but this is where So-yong reaches an interesting place in her trajectory.

She’s now not only fully embracing her pregnancy, but she’s fully committed to Cheoljong as well — i.e., quite in love. This shift was pretty inevitable, but also interesting because it’s mostly the reality of her new circumstances that help her accept her emotions. The news of Cheoljong’s death is enough to break her, but when she sneakily realizes it’s all a hoax, it’s her turn for some adventure.

And so, So-yong, Lady Choi, and Hong Yeon sneak out of the palace on a mission to find Cheoljong, save him, and restore the balance. This just might be my favorite plot direction of the entire drama — it’s a breath of fresh air to get out of the palace, and the rules of engagement are different and a welcomed change.

However, the women are not exactly a match for Byung-in and his men, and they’re pretty quickly located. Lady Choi bravely sacrifices herself for So-yong’s safety, and Hong Yeon soon does the same (I blindly refuse to believe they actually came to harm — don’t you dare, Show!). But even with their brave sacrifices, So-yong doesn’t get very far.

In a spine-chilling (and awesome!) moment, So-yong looks up from her hiding place only to see a truly evil-looking Byung-in staring down at her. Ahh! She tries to run away, but pretty soon finds herself in the exact same position Cheoljong was in at the end of the previous episode. Death by Byung-in’s sword, or a dive off the cliff into the sea?

It’s a great moment, and I’m excited to see where they take it. The confrontation between these two is exciting in and of itself, but even more so with Byung-in screaming about what she did to the “real” So-yong.

Also, let’s not forget the huge Episode 1 callback here: So-yong/Bong-hwan is about to dive into a huge body of water to escape oncoming demise. This can’t be a mere coincidence. Will it change something, trigger something, or reveal something? Will So-yong even jump, or will Byung-in have mercy? I don’t know! And please, no spoilers — not even a whisper — till we reach next week’s finale.

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1 Radily

February 9, 2021 at 10:01 PM

Anti-fans! I haven’t had the best reception towards this show so far (looking at my posts and comments will be telling) but I’ve been seeing praises across the web for this drama and am very perplexed at the outpouring of love.

I am looking to hear perspectives of others who are also watching the show and would appreciate if you could objectively comment on the following aspects:

1) Story:
- What differentiates this saguek from other sagueks?
- Do you think that the comedy is supporting the politics or vice versa?
- Have there been any plot holes or moments where you had to suspend your disbelief?

2) Characterisation:
- Would you say that the characters are easily defined as good or evil?
- Are character motivations generally simple or complex?
- How are the supporting characters developed as compared to the main cast?

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ENKIII

February 9, 2021 at 10:34 PM

1) Story:
- Not sure about differentiation. It could be similar to some other sagueks in some aspects but unique in a sense that the king is historically known as a fool, which in this case he's not. Along with the fact that a modern man entered the body of a female of the past.
- Comedy isn't meant to support politics vice versa. It's to provide and carry the lighthearted mood and vibe of the show. Nothing in relation to one another.
- The whole show is based on something unbelievable. Suspend your belief from the start. That's the point.

2) Characterisation:
- There is a pretty clear definition, but everyone does everything for their own reasons and agendas.
- Motivations are simple to understand. It's not meant to be complex- as you can tell from the whole vibe of the show.
- Supporting characters have nowhere as near as much development as the main characters. Again, it's not meant to be a complex show.

From the questions you have put out, I think the main issue is it isn't your type of show at all. Why look for complexity and depth in a show that openly displayed itself as a relatively lighthearted comedy? For others, enjoy it for what it is. Drop it if it isn't your type of show.

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shichybot

February 9, 2021 at 10:55 PM

I agree. I've had to stop thinking about why the body swap happened, and what happened to So Yong in Bong Hwan's body. I don't even want to think about how SoBong possibly changes the course of history.

Show just offers a joy ride with an outstanding cast, laugh-out-loud jokes, marvelous costumes, etc. Just enjoy it.

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Radily

February 9, 2021 at 11:44 PM

1) Why look for complexity and depth in a show that openly displayed itself as a relatively lighthearted comedy?

The show did that for like the first two weeks ... after the cliffhanger in Episode 4 where Bong Hwan hilariously tries to one-up the King over protecting a woman, the comedy just went downhill as the fish-out-of-water hijinks ceased and the love pentagon (as well as politics later) started to dominate the show. I wouldn't say it even pretended it was still about comedy even before the first half ended.

2) Drop it if it isn't your type of show.

I mean I picked up the show thanks to Shin Hye Sun and I'm still staying with it because of her acting. And I don't think I'll drop it when I've watched the penultimate week. If I dropped every show I didn't like objectively, there wouldn't be a lot of shows to watch. Anyway, this is besides the point, I'm trying to find other objective reviews of the show.

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byzantines

February 10, 2021 at 3:12 AM

I actually think the show gets even funnier and finds its groove after episode 4, but honestly- it's just more ridiculous comedy hijinks and politics and if that isn't your thing I wouldn't bother- or wait until all the episodes are done.

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Lelly19

February 10, 2021 at 6:11 AM

The comedy did not go downhill, I guess it didn't suit your taste anymore, which is fine..

I remember thinking, when watching the episode dealing with the aftermath of CJ blowing himself up, that even at a time when serious things were happening they still couldn't do without comedy..I mean, it was a tense part of the episode, yet we had SY's father "threatening" to hang himself in front of Kim Jwa-geun in a way that just made me laugh out loud xD

Or recently the "fake death"..it lasted for like 10 minutes max, then we had SB finding out the truth and putting on that show in front of the the dowagers xD

I loved such scenes, but I understand not everyone will..

Why are you looking for objectivity here? Sometimes we just like a drama without thinking too deeply about it! ^^

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Radily

February 10, 2021 at 3:15 PM

1) We had SY's father "threatening" to hang himself in front of Kim Jwa-geun
2) We had SB finding out the truth and putting on that show in front of the the dowagers

Yes these were funny scenes but they are definitely standalone moments of comedic relief. Which is fine and all that but that just means the show is still mainly focused on the serious politics. Anyway what I was saying was a reply to the previous commenter about how the show was at the forefront a comedy, which it certainly wasn't after the initial setup. I'm not saying it's not funny anymore (if it wasn't I would have dropped it).

3) Why are you looking for objectivity here? Sometimes we just like a drama without thinking too deeply about it!

It's fine to just like a drama without being critical but it's also fine to want a drama to be well-written, especially when your fav is starring in it. YMMV.

Lelly19

February 11, 2021 at 4:03 AM

@radily of course we all want a drama to be well written!! Who doesn't!

What I mean is that there doesn't have to be only one, objective perspective of what is well/badly written?

I find this drama well written for the most part..of course it has its flaws, some bigger than other..but on average it's a good show, in my opinion.

Does this mean I am not being objective?

Also, yes, this drama is indeed a (romantic) comedy, but the more serious, political plot has been there from the start..it's definitely not the strongest part of the show, no doubt, but I feel like there has been a good comedy/drama balance till now, so I am still satisfied ;)

Radily

February 11, 2021 at 4:52 AM

"What I mean is that there doesn't have to be only one, objective perspective of what is well/badly written?"

That's exactly the reason why I wanted to find out what other people thought of the story and characterisation! There isn't one way of viewing it objectively, yes.

"I find this drama well written for the most part..of course it has its flaws, some bigger than other..but on average it's a good show, in my opinion.

Does this mean I am not being objective?"

If you think so, could you elaborate more on why you think objectively it was a good show? And of course if you can defend your own viewpoint, I don't see why it isn't objective.

"I feel like there has been a good comedy/drama balance till now"

Though this isn't subjective :P

Lelly19

February 11, 2021 at 5:54 AM

@radily
I'm sorry, but I usually don't have such a "scientific" approach when I watch dramas! I like what I like, and dislike what I dislike xD

I can say that in this specific case I like the story, I like how it's told and I like the actors (majority of them) and the way they're portraying their characters..but if you want to know why exactly, well, I don't know, I just do, it suits my taste! xD

Also, I think we disagree on the use of "objective/subjective", which is kind of a pointless discussion..it seems like you want to know detailed reason why people enjoy the drama (which is fair), whether those reasons are really objective or not is beyond the point, tbh.
I don't think I can help you with this, but I hope you got some interesting answers, though! ;)

ENKIII

February 15, 2021 at 8:53 AM

Your comment about comedy is subjective. I found that they did well in integrating comedy even in heavier episodes, maintaining it well as one of their main themes.

Finding answers to questions that can't be answered is hopeless. Example: why is this light-hearted show lacking deep characterisation or plot? It is what it is. I suggested dropping it as it just isn't your kind of show. If you're powering through it for the actress, then why continue to question the drama when you're not watching the drama for the drama?

Good luck with finding other objective reviews. Though personally, I would say the only part I enjoyed about the drama was Shin Hye Sun's character and comedy. You won't see me trying to pick at plot- I watched it till the end so might as well affirm the drama for the wicked entertainment.

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chibi8535

February 11, 2021 at 11:45 PM

Hello, @Radily!
I love having objective dissection and discussion over shows I like, even though characterization and plot have little to do with it. For ex, I'll be very honest, I'm watching it for the gender-bender antics in a historical setting (outrageous), the leads, their acting & chemistry. The wardrobe is nice, colour-grading is nice (the night-scenes have the yellowish candle-glow), and comedy + historic costume dramas is a genre I really like (c-dramas have more of this). I have watched only 2 saeguks before this, so please don't hold my inexperience against my opinions on the questions you put up. Moving on:

1. Story:
-Historic costume dramas in Korea which are a comedy throughout..... I think that's a very minute fraction of all the Saeguks produced? That way this is different. I thought this style resembled a lot of c-dramas like Romance of Tiger & Rose, Sleepless Princess, Killing of 1000 crows, etc. Upon researching I found its a GPG korean remake (no wonder!). Hence, the style of the story is vastly different from Saeguks (like empress ki, queen seonduk, jewel in the palace, hwang jin yi, which are all serious period dramas)

-The comedy and politics are two independent rivulets that come and join the main story, which is like a stream/ river. The rivulets occasionally do intersect when the writers can make them, and that produces even crazier comedy imo. for ex. BH wanting the pond to be filled and supplying face masks & serums & french-cooking to GQD is outrageously funny. But the comedy isn't being used to make the politics interesting, or the politics isn't being used to fill the gaps when there is no comedy, because the politics (talks and plotting) usually plays out a few episodes later (and drives the plot)

-Well, since it's a fantasy story, the fact that there is a soul swap in a swimming pool has already caused me to suspend my belief from ep1. I have yet to come across a drama (c or k) that is devoid of plot holes. My common logic says, 'no way this character is getting out of this alive'.. but boom, 'plot armour', 'deus ex machina' and we brush it aside and move on. The character makes a miraculous excape and goes unscathed. It hasn't hampered my enjoyment of the story so far. A few ex. Dam-Hyang's fake-out, HwaJin scoring the ledger in her poofy Hanbok out of the well in an enemy's manor w/o being noticed, the entire vigilante-by night & idiot-by day persona of the King, heck, even BI publicly being a jerk to the King, etc. Dramas require a suspension of belief anyway, and Mr. Queen doesn't require too much or too less.

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chibi8535

February 12, 2021 at 12:36 AM

Hello, @Radily!
Continued from the prev. half of the comment...

2. Characterization:
-Let's talk about the key-players of the story. Each of these major players (in politics) swing on a spectrum of good to evil. They are only good, as long as their purpose is being served. Each character apart from our leads, and pehaps cute poet Kim and girl-squad, is shown to have a potential to backstab, intentionally or otherwise. The concubine, the creepy cousin, the simp-brother, both the dowager queens, Minister Kim (he is a 'doting father' as long as BI does his clan's bidding).... In short everybody is playing 'the game of thrones' including SoBong. The 'outrightly good' leads with everybody bad/evil, is a very Mary-Sue kind of a setup that plagues all 'big-female lead' historic costume dramas. [Making others evil only to glorify the fault-less heroine even more]. That imo is lazy writing, and atleast Mr. Queen isn't like that.

-One thing the show does nicely, is the fact while there are two camps (Team Jo and Team Kim), two people on the same team can have *very different* motivations. They may be working together for the time being, but their allegiance is ever-shifting. for ex. GQD and Creepy Cousin joined hands (both on Team Kim) but they have very different goals. Similarly, Concubine and QD (on Team Jo) again have different motivations, and when this pair-up doesnt work, Concubine teams up with Minister Kim while QD gets GQD brainwashed and do her bidding instead. [Still waiting for Creepy Cousin to ditch granny GQD.] Also, both teams have joined up to commonly take down the King. As a result, GQD & QD are working together without even being hyper-aware of it. Character motivations are simple, but the way the politics & allegiances play out, isn't TOO simple. But then again, on a scale of ONE to Nirvana in Fire, it's all pretty tame.

-Considering the fact that KJH is portraying 2 personas, and SHS is portraying 5 personas, the characters on the side are quite.... un-layered? There is no angst or conflict on their part, which means they are quite focussed (as a character trait) but that itself is 'simple writing'. Then again, I assume Mr. Queen wasn't written to be a paragon of complex characters.

So, Mr. Queen definitely scores on some areas, and misses on some other (out of the ones you mentioned). I hope I was objective enough in my response. However, this is a scoring guideline/ evaluation rubric I'll use for an entirely different category of dramas, even though Mr Queen and those dramas both bear the tag 'Saeguk'. The outpour of love for this, isn't majorly because any of these 6 responses. We are all loving it (trust me when I speak on behalf of everyone, as I am active on the Soompi thread, MDL, DB, twitter AND one discord server)... the consensus is we are all loving it for the chemistry, the leads, the gender-bender shenanigans, etc. Besides, the original novel/ c-drama was written as a fluff. The writers...

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chibi8535

February 12, 2021 at 12:42 AM

......The writers have already managed to inject a lot of depth from a superficial piece of work. I won't tell you to change your method or criteria of enjoying a show because everybody watches a drama for different reasons. But, it would certainly cause you less disappointment, if you use different yardsticks to evaluate different kinds of content. If I use similar criteria to evaluate Philippa Gregory with Shakespeare's series of 'Henry the VI' plays, I am definitely up for being underwhelmed and wonder why my hormonal friend gushed SO much about a completely romanticized & fictional account of Tudor-period royalty, despite both being 'historical costume period works' belonging to the same era, in the same country.

meowingme

February 10, 2021 at 6:41 AM

Story: the main difference for me is definitely the fantasy element, which personally is why I watch since I can never finish serious sageuks... Hence am happy to have comedy in the forefront and politics in the background.

Characterization: love the main characters and the side characters, but kinda feels show drops the ball for the second leads, like they are trying hard to make them complex so we got them pivoting from righteous to bad (or even super evil) to good again in a short time ._.

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geminirat

February 10, 2021 at 4:36 PM

@radily, Are you a student doing a 'drama' report or something? Seems like what I did when I had to write a book report in high school about a book that was 3-inches thick. I watch dramas to relax, not to obsess about objectivity too much.

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Radily

February 10, 2021 at 5:03 PM

'I watch dramas to relax, not to obsess about objectivity too much.'

And that's fine! I didn't say it wasn't! But why are you coming after me for the way I watch dramas?

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Emperor Titus

February 10, 2021 at 10:54 PM

Don't blame @radily, everyone. I guess jokes are something that is very cultural, if you are not immerse in that culture, you sometimes hardly understand it, let alone laugh at it.

On the other hand, I do feel the show is full of fun, and I did laugh several occasions pretty uncontrollably, and almost cry in at least one scene (when So-yung was guessing everything as Cheoljong). It may not be the best show I watched through the years, but definitely one of the most enjoyable.

I don't answer you through your questions, but in another way. I do find some very serious discussion in this drama, and comedy and serious stuff do intertwined.

First of all, Mr. Queen is definitely not the first drama going through time travel which is also a Chinese adaption, as Moon Lovers: Scarlet Heart Ryeo in 2016 was doing the same. Certainly Mr. Queen has a lot of reference from other dramas, but I did think about Moon Lovers in quite a lot of occasions, to name a few examples:
(1) Bong-hwan falls into the water to go back to the past (Ep.1);
(2) They ride through a forest (Ep.17—Yes, Wang So did ride a horse with Hae Soo in a scene) ;
(3) So-yong teaches Cheoljong about South Korea (Ep.16).

The last one is especially significant, because when So-yong brings in raman and McDonald's (Mak-du-na-du) into Chosun court, we just laugh at the modern reference; but when she starts talking about modern Korea to Cheoljong, it hits me--Hae Su doesn't learn her history well, and she keep on guessing who will become the dictator and kill off all his siblings; Bong-hwan, however, does know, and he knows according to history, Cheoljong was a fool, which is exactly the opposite of what he learned.

They both love the man they destined to be with, Hae Su to Wang So, So-yong to Cheoljong, but Bong-hwan go one step further. Hae Su simply don’t want her love to become that dictator, and everyone to have good ending. Through So-yong, however, Bong-hwan is actually more selfish, yet more down to earth, he just want to change history so that his life in modern time go more easier, but So-yong do love Cheoljong, this make Bong-hwan/So-yong a more complicate character. Bong-hwan keeps on bringing modern cuisine/cosmetics back in time is a constant theme that eventually turned comedy into serious discussion, to become Cheoljong’s content of a possibly unsuccessful reform.

By doing this, the drama is questioning the historic record they made themselves (remember when the drama first aired, they get complaint about not respecting history?) and how the past historians dealing with their own history. “Cheoljong being a fool” according to history is being written by historians at the time (and other than being a fool and a sex-pervert, there’s not much talk about him in the history book), but what have those historians omitted? What if they don’t know this side of Cheoljong (or being hided by those powerful ministers at the time)?...

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Emperor Titus

February 10, 2021 at 10:58 PM

... What if the perspective of those historians could not accept how Cheoljong ahead of his time?

Therefore, I think Mr. Queen is talking about something way deeper then its comedy. Certainly being a comedy may need some caricature characters for us to easily understand and quick to laugh at, but I do appreciate the screenwriter dare to write something about this to challenge their own history, which is a good thing.

(And by the way, Moon Lovers not only followed the original text of the drama they were planning to adapt, but also followed the history context they were planning to base on—except when they are in conflict, the history goes supreme. Mr. Queen not only doesn’t follow the original, but also does not follow the history to make this excellent point; this is why I think Mr. Queen is the better drama between the two, let along a great piece of drama by itself)

(Yes, this is part 2 of 2. Sorry the comment section can't let me write more)

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Radily

February 11, 2021 at 1:27 AM

Thanks for the insight! I don't know if I agree with your comment about the screenwriter challenging their own history, as they have (due to netizen complaints) placed disclaimer tags on the start of each and every episode, indicating that this piece is a work of fiction. Of course, they may still do subtle critiques here and there, but as a non-Korean, most of these would be lost on me as I do not have in-depth knowledge on Korean history. As per their disclaimer though (and by virtue of the fact that this isn't a documentary and has origins from a Chinese novel), I have chosen to view this as a story in its own right.

As for the comparisons to Moon Lovers, I didn't watch that show (I only know its synopsis and the ending which I believe was very divisive, which makes me think it was a good thing I didn't watch it lol) so I won't be able to comment on that.

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2 Jezz

February 9, 2021 at 10:52 PM

This week's episodes had ended with so many cliffs of doom.... hmmm. Mr. Queen was now back of being gone into the darkest storylines again after So-yong's pregnancy as they finally reached its epic climatic battles before Bong-hwan's returning souls the following next (final) week.

Also, during Episode 18, I loved the sleeping blanket/bag of female trio and it's so amazing when there's should having a cold winds or cool winds.

I hope So-yong will die quickly as if she will lose the battle to Byung-in and/or So-yong will jump into the cliff and quickly put back to Bong-hwan so that he will wake up at his hospital.

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3 shichybot

February 9, 2021 at 11:23 PM

Even Mr. Queen can't escape the formulaic angst of the episodes the weekend before the finale. The queen missing the king was sweet... and it's the first time I actually cried in this drama, watching her read the letter the King left for their baby.

I laughed at how So Bong knew that wasn't the king's corpse; haha she felt THAT?! or is it just my dirty mind?? LOL. She going out to find him kinda left me worried about her delicate condition, let alone riding a horse to the royal vacation house. The first trimester is the very delicate part of pregnancy isn't it?

Byeong In felt like the big baddie but I have a feeling he will still save her. I initially thought he and Cheoljeongi had a plan, but then I didn't. But what if they did?! (0.0)

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