No worries re approaching this as an outsider. I’m rather skeptical too on what I grew up with, only that the show conforms to it.

We actually don’t know yet if CS will pay a very steep price for doing what Mago wanted. *fingers crossed* because I want them to have a happy ending. But in this show, there is no such thing as an end. You die, you move on, you are reborn. The cycle of life, death and rebirth repeats itself.

From the religious stand point that I refer to, there’s no such thing as free will. Our circumstances and temperament – determined by our past karma – limit our free will. For instance, an accident causing someone to go blind thereby cutting off many opportunities they would otherwise have had; or simply being born into a poor family and the absence of money dictating the choices one must make. Being born white into a wealthy family in an OECD country vs being born black into a poor family a war-torn country. Being dyslexic, having ADHD, female in a country that does not allow women to step out of the house without a man. Free will is limited in its “Freedom”.

Re Chan Sung, I frame it in the backdrop of his karmic web getting entangled with Man-wol’s endless one. This is the consequence of her choosing to further spin the web; instead of moving on and paying the debts. It’s her free will that caused this. That’s what Mago means, “you brought this on him”. Man-wol did.

Re the child. He chose to lessen the karmic burden on his parents and himself, by letting them live out what is left of their lives. It was an exercise of his free will.

I did mention I’m reaching into something I grew up with to understand the show. 😀 I’m sure the Hong Sisters aren’t. But they are unintentionally going into obscure spiritual beliefs from remote corners of India. You won’t find this in mainstream Hindu texts, it’s in the teachings of yogis and sants (in English, saints maybe?), a quiet undercurrent to the loud, visible, religious mainstay.

@greenfields but what you call “lack of freedom due to the situation one was born in” is allegedly a direct consequence of what one did in previous incarnations. So that means that my current consequences are defined by my past choices and what I chose to do about it in this lifetime defines my future. If that is not free will then I don’t know what is.

but I don’t get the role of the gods in all this: do they change events too or just police the eternal cycle of judgements? is there room for interpretation for the weight of one’s sins? for right and wrong? for crime and punishment? the Magos seem to imply yes but are we them back to being at the mercy of capricious gods?

Sorry for pushing you on this point… I should have payed attention in religion class rather than solving math problems behind the prof’s back. but then again my questions would have counted as heresy anyways

“It was all preordained to end in disaster from the get go and everyone’s just a cog in the machine that makes it happen”
Yeahp

“it’s no longer about right and wrong but rather about the gods flexing their muscles because they can”
It was NEVER about right and wrong. It was always about the gods, or rather actually the Hong Sisters, flexing.
I sound like an asshole for bringing this up again, but I did actually think this was going to happen from day one, and have maintained this view the entire time, and this is why the Ma Go as story telling devices piss me off: They remove free will, as you have quite correctly pointede out. Which if you believe in free will (which I’m guessing you do, as do I), is a metaphysical issue in the show itself.

@charlie – The idea is that free will in *this* life is negligible, yes, because of past entanglements.

@sicarius – I suppose I have no issues with the show because I don’t care about the concept of “free will”, more about correctly identifying and working with the constraints within which my “free will” is limited.

I do think the show is very well written. Does life exist to teach us lessons, help us heal, give us closure? Or does it just exist even though we don’t always get any of that? The show treats death and rebirth as an eternal cycle. Not good, not bad, just what is. Like Chan Sung’s mother really did just abandon her child, or the ghost whose wife abandoned him for her first love, was also just abandoned unfairly – it is what it is. Without any justification attached to it. It’s not something I see in television too often – mostly because people do want to see completed arcs and character development (me too); and I like the way it is handled here. From my perspective – the show’s treatment of its plot (so far) makes sense.

@greenfields
“not good not bad just what it is”- the problem with this is that it contradictory with some of the things explored in this show.
This show has a broken moral spectrum. It claims it does not abide by “human morality” (whatever that is exactly, it never says), but then has every other sub plot ghost of the week making moral judgements about what right and wrong actually is.
Chan Seong and Man Weol believe in their version of right and wrong, which doesn’t always line up with what the gods think as right or wrong (this is moral relativism), but then the whole show has these under-arching often seemingly almost Christian themes of unconditional love, forgiveness and redemption, but based on what? There’s no moral code for this to base it’s redemption arc on so it comes across as shallow.
On top of that it’s based in ancient Asian religions (as you’ve pointed out), which contradict both moral relativism AND Christianity.
Whatever your personal take on morality is, I find this show to have weak writing because it has three main worldviews it’s trying to make all its themes work through… and it doesn’t actually work.
Which is probably why you, I and Charlie see this show all very differently and interpret it in different ways. You see the moving on cirlce of life aspect, but I cannot ignore that it also sometimes attempts to be a redemption arc in disguise which just doesn’t make sense to me in light of all the rest of it. To Charlie (if I’m reading you right), to now turn and fully embrace a (potentially Hindu) seemingly hopeless (at least for Man Weol) worldview when so much of the show was pointing to another direction, seems yes, pointless, and sadistic.

@sicarius – actually that is my point. Redemption, moral judgments, we make them the best we can from our relative standpoints. The Magos are certainly not god, they’re merely the highest deity shown to us in the show. For instance, even black Mago has not been able to burn Park Il Do (who made a hilarious cameo) though she does usually turn spirits that harm humans, to ashes.

All the characters are acting from their very different points of view, and there is much chaos. The only constant I’m seeing is life, death, maybe spend some time as a spirit, rebirth. So long as that holds true, I’m able to understand the incomplete and chaotic arcs. Those may be elements of Christian and other thought, but it is a whole part of the books that occupy countless shelves in my house. XD (thanks to my mum) Things like redemption matter only because we’re unable to let go of that desire – but it seems like the show is saying, “let go, move on, don’t get attached to temporary things”.

And yup, I like that there are differing interpretations too. That the show makes no sense to you, and yet you watch it while criticizing everything it does; or that Charlie also could not justify what happened in the last episode but still loves the characters; or that I can relate a Korean drama to something the writers have likely never been exposed to.

In any case, I wholly expect the show to diverge from my pov and onto your’s – redemption, closure, healing – because this IS television. ^^;

@greenfields
Wait what was your point?
That morality is relative? Why is moral relativity something I, you to this show should ascribe to?
Or is your point that this show is good because it showcases so many standpoints?
But it doesn’t know it does. It’s not self aware. It’s just everything mushed together pretending to make sense. Are you elevating it’s chaos, which wasn’t on purpose and makes little sense when it comes down to basic storytelling, which this show is trying to adhere to in many other ways anyway? Is it smart because it is unintentionally a chaotic mess, much like the world? Is that what you mean?
Or even…
Is there no good or bad writing then, only chaos?

“Is it smart because it is unintentionally a chaotic mess, much like the world? Is that what you mean?” Yup. Boiled down into one line and stripped away of nuance, to fit your view of the world, yes – that is what I mean. But remember it is a chaos that makes sense to me because it fits within my view of the world, and I view it as the natural order of things. So if you want to call that world view entirely delusional and unstructured, that’s fine. 😅 I also agree that the show doesn’t intend to fit my world view, imho it only unintentionally does so – possibly because different Asian beliefs intermingle with one another here and there, and Buddhism (differing variants of it) is a thing in South Korea as well. The Hong Sisters may have indeed lost control, or they may be flexing and playing with characters – either way, I’m enjoying the ride.

I suppose this is another W: Two Worlds, which I loved although most people hated the second half because the chaos made no sense to them. On the other hand, I thought that the more nonsensical it became, the more “true” it was to Kang Chul, who hated that he’d had to suffer only so an audience could enjoy the outcome of his suffering. Very meta.

P.S. My comment isn’t meant to sound rude. I use *your* view of the world, and *my* view of the world to clearly delineate the two differing religious/spiritual beliefs that influence our perspectives.

On another note, morality is definitely relative. It is clear intolerance to assume anything else.

@sicarius & Charlie – if I may add, the show draws heavily upon Eastern ideas of reincarnation, life and death, in its premise. If I understand Christianity and/or the general overall “Western” worldview correctly, reincarnation isn’t a very popular idea. So I think it may be worth considering the show from another point of view.

I agree when I read Sico’s shitposts that from your pov, it must be a nonsensical show. But do try and consider it from a perspective that differs from yours, and you (sico) may find there’s a lot to enjoy and explore in what it is giving us.

@greenfields
I think my problem with that is you’re justifying potentially flawed and bad writing as good with your own reasoning.
But you already know that cos we’ve had this discussion about W before: it wasn’t deliberately meta in its chaos, even though you enjoy it that way.
The same here; it’s more likely for it to just be poorly written than it is to be smart, especially if one agrees that it was unintentional in meeting one’s worldview.

We can discuss the origins or morality and logic some other day.

Lol @sicarius I think you’re justifying good writing as being bad and flawed with your own reasoning too. 😄

This is true. I agree with what the point of the show is. But I think that the story they’re setting up is one in which Man-wol realizes this too? She doesn’t seem to know it yet.