I am so frustrated with her characterization. Because her revenge is so personal. There is really no "greater good" involved. Let's play it out. She dethrones the current king, puts the crown prince in his place and gets rid of Minister Park. Then what? The people are magically better? The captives in Qing are all released immediately rather than through the slow process they are now? The Prince so young would avoid being a puppet and somehow rule a country? To get this revenge she's willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone including the prince, the princess, the captives, because if the king was as evil as she believes he would have killed all those involved once the plan was found out. He would have had the right to do so. (I still can't get over her making the former Qing captive go back there to live out the rest of her life. Wow. You made a POW go back to the country of their captivity, to basically die a captive). When the young prince asked her if this was for her personal gain, I actually thought that would give her pause, but she really answered that it was for the good of the people. This plan put the repatriation system in danger and put them at serious risk for war. So how? When the king confronts her with this she responds that she did it because of the sympathy she felt for the princess (so this wasn't for the people, again it was personal). So how am I supposed to root for her. Side note: this recap began with her immediately fessing up, but no she couldn't even do that. She found out the plan was messed up from earlier in the day, she waited until night and far into the baduk game before she confessed. It's hard to root for her. We're told that she's smart, so when she does these things, there is no excuse. Her behavior and decisions actually has SFL villain written all over it.

@lynnb
Sounds like she is as captivated as her brother was and doesn't see things like she used to. Madness can happen to the smartest and to the kindest. Let's just hope is temporary and that Lee In helps her finding herself again.

So she does all this revenge because she felt betrayed? I mean. I felt betrayed many times in my life by the people I trusted, and I felt the indignity and pain but I did not wish death on them, lol! Do you understand what I am saying? To MURDER someone (ESPECIALLY the person you love), there got be a reason charged with insurmountable suffering and anguish or extreme injustice. That scene from episode 4 was fantastic but it lacked the righteous anger or insurmountable trauma. Moreover, throughout the series, she kept referring to him as "unsuitable" King, which likely weighed in her decision but also made her motives muddy and unfocused. Compare that to Glory, for example, where Moon Dong-eun, who suffered insurmountable trauma as depicted over the course of couple of episodes, was careful NOT to descend to the level of her tormentors and bloody her hands with a murder but schemed to pit them against teach other. The game of baduk was also featured there, and she was a master player and planner, focused, and VERY CLEAR, ON REPEAT, in many episodes, in many flashbacks, on why she does what she does. We could sympathize with her because not only her tormentors gave her a lifetime of trauma but also murdered her classmate and bought off the police. She was given no choice but to seek revenge, whereas our heroine's motives come across as petty and small, unfortunately. Mong-woo just simply has a lot more choices at this point, like maybe continue plotting these kindergarten plans, instead of actually seeking to murder her lover.

@bomibeans
The reasons in Glory are better, of course, but we shouldn't hold it as the standard of all revenge dramas. To Hee-soo's defense, she was almost killed also, of course not by Lee In, but she was placed in that position by him unjustly. Not to mention the that, if she didn't escape, she would have faced also a hard punishment also unjustly. 100 floggings and three year of forced labour is a lot when you have done nothing to deserve it. She knew very well that he was aware of her complete innocence and did nothing. Also, she asked him to spare only Hongjong and not herself. He saw in what critical state she was and that she would not survive. He could have at least ordered that she gets medical help before her punishment. And of course she died. Even more, her father went to Qing because of that spy and he said that it was Lee In that exposed him to the Qings. So we have her almost dead, her friend really dead and her father probably dead and all conecting directly and indirectly to Lee In.
Of course she judges and gave her sentence hastly, without making sure she had all the facts. But he lost all of her trust then, nothing that he could say would have made any difference. And that is all on him because he could have very easily killed Hongjung's brother and save her. Why is he still alive and having influenve in the palace?

@kodra
Yep, totally understand where you are coming from. For me, as a viewer, the intensity of her reasons were not enough to provide a justification for plotting a murder, and I could tell it all the way back to episode 3-4. There's this concept in cinema, "show, don't tell", that's really a basic tenant of any good cinema writing. There was a lot of "tell" but little of "show" in this series. If Writernim presented more scenes that clarified the reasons behind our heroine's actions or showed the intensity of her suffering, then I'd be fine with her character. Despite the many criticisms I impart on many shows here on DB, I'm actually a very forgiving viewer. Many of my criticisms stem from personal impressions as a viewer, but many of them are backed by knowledge I obtained by being a voracious consumer of fiction and critical reviews. I see your point though.

@bomibeans
Thanks for sharing, now I know what is important to you in a drama. For me, the "show, don't tell" is not always very important. In this particular case, I didn't need to see her sufering afterwards, I saw enough during the trial, during Hongjung's death and when she almost died to understand her shock and the reasons for revenge. And also, we might still get that, the writer might hold that card for various reasons and might reveal it later on. So far he choose to present us only bits of information about those three years and that would have been the time when we would have seen more of her pain and planning. When she arrived, she was all "healed" and focused on achieving what she intended.
Personally, I enjoy when I am not seeing everything, when I have to think and find things on my own. To go back and rewatch, to find new clues that I might have missed. And think about it, seeing that brother with Lee In after knowing that he wanted her sister dead...what more is there to see to understand that she thought Lee In agreed to kill Hongjung. And that he really doesn't care about the inocent people of Joseon, as he told her before. Or to see the spy, with his eye plucked, to understand his suffering. Almost everyone close to her suffered from those events and she barely survived. Do I have to see flashbacks every time she is on screen to understand her pain? I don't.
I am bothered by other things, like him not asking her identity. I though that was cheap. But the more I think about it, the more I am intrigued. Did he know all along and did he play her (and us) like he did his uncle recently? Because there was the calling for baduk players of all social classes exactly after 3 years question? And the calling of his mentor's friend back to the court, the same one that cared and helped her in those 3 years? Why is he gathering everyone? Is he using her, knowing well all along that she wants revenge?
And the queen asking for the the nephew to be the CP I didn't quite get at first. It could be that her childish plans might hold water. She initially got close to the GP by helping the queen with the QD. She got the GP's trust by helping his sister, the princess. She got him close to the Queen to convince everyone to make him the CP. She even had help from her father's friend. If all along her plan was to make him the CP and to kill Lee In, then she would have power through the CP, the future king. We could say that she got lucky, that she didn't know from the start those situations would appear. But we could see her reasoning ad that she would have found others ways to achieve them.
Hopefully we will have as great last 4 episodes as the first 4 were.

"To that question she said yes and asked why she shouldn't avail herself of that fact."

Classic emotional manipulation, no? I was so startled when she said that. Yes, at least she's honest with him about her feelings, and I'm sure the King realizes he's being manipulated or, more nobly said, "captivated", but I was like -- GIRL, you cannot just discard the RESPONSIBILITY for your acts toward people that can potentially hurt them physically and emotionally because he loves you. It's like a child who broke something, and you ask them why you shouldn't ground them, and they tell you, because you love them. We forgive kids, they are clueless, but adults should be more or less aware when they intentionally (or unintentionally) manipulate people to avoid taking responsibility for their actions. Oh, Mong-woo! 😆

The spy (or Eye-Patch) was not told that Lee In sent a message to Ming when he was tortured. He was told that if he confesses to being a spy sent to Ming that the current king would be dethroned and Lee In replace him. He concluded that must mean that Lee In made a deal with Qing and sold him out. But Hee Soo has both sides of the story so I'm confused as to their reasoning. She should know from the spy that it was her father who sent him to Ming, and she knows that Myung-ha's father was trying to kill Lee In by having him take responsibility for sending a spy to Ming.
So what was Lee In's plan supposed to be by their reasoning? Have his mentor send a spy to Ming, have the spy be caught by Qing and have the current king be dethroned? There are so many holes in this plan, once the spy is caught Myung-ha's father would immediately use that as an excuse to have him killed (which he did). The only thing that stopped this was that the king died. (IF he planned to just kill the king anyway, what was the point of the whole Qing & Ming debacle?) There was no way to ensure the Qing's reaction. Why send Hee Soo's father to the Qing instead of wait for the Qing orders to dethrone his brother? As I'm writing this I realize that she would believe this crappy plot was his plan because her plans are no better thought out or reasoned. She already showed her thinking in that to save one stone she would risk the whole game. To save the princess she risked everyone else and war.

Your last sentences were priceless! 🤣🤣🤣
I understood that the cyclop was informed while his eye was popped out of its socket that Lee In told the Qings about the king sending a spy to Ming and exposed him. Anyway everyone believed that Lee In was the Qing spy in Joseon court. By "exposing" the one-eye spy, the clause that he would be made King by the Qing (if his brother did something wrong as sending a spy to the Ming) would have been taking effect thus Lee In would replace his brother. This is what his brother thought also, that he planned everything with his mentor, that's why he wanted to kill him, even though he asked FL's father t send the spy and he went to Qing to save him. On top of that, they believe that Lee In traped the father into making false acusations and killed him so nobody would deny him taking the throne.
Lee In, as far as we know, had nothing to do with the spy, of course. It's their version of what happened and their reason for revenge. I think the show is trying to present the different ways the mind can be captivated and the wrong doings when being captivated, not only by love as we thought at the beginning.

@kodra aka PPP You are really putting in work to advocate for this woman. Your work is noted and appreciated (Cyclops 😂, I wasn't ready). But I am no longer employed with that company, I quit about ten minutes into episode 11. I will take your wisdom and conclude that you are right, this show wanted to show the different ways a mind can be captivated. Clearly her last two brain cells are being held captive and are unable to come together and work out even one logical line of reasoning. When I think of it that way, I can sympathize because there are days when my two brain cells refuse to work together.

@lynnB
I enjoyed our conversation, it was fun.
Sorry to hear you dropped it. Me and my two brain cells are still holding the ship. 🤣
There are very few kdramas that I get so interested to plead their case online.

@lynnb: "Clearly her last two brain cells are being held captive and are unable to come together and work out even one logical line of reasoning. When I think of it that way, I can sympathize because there are days when my two brain cells refuse to work together."
🤣🤣🤣🤣

This is priceless. Best quip of the day. I literally guffawed out loud.

Btw the entire exchange between Lynnb and Kodra is hilarious - it's like performance art of episodes 3-12 lol

Just look at the slew of posts flying back and forth amongst all Beanies just debating ONE point. ONE.

Namely, what the hell actually happened in the infamous spy interrogation incident (Ep3-4)? Who did what, who had which version of the story, how did their versions differ and why?

This is circa 2024 when we Beanies have the benefit of the internet, online forums, crowdsourced wisdom, Netflix subtitles, the omniscient audience POV, and the all-important replay function to re-watch footage and verify facts...AND YET, we are still debating until the cows come home 🤣🤣

Mong-woo had none of these benefits. She was thrust violently into the thick of a political controversy, forced to testify in a kangaroo trial, and amidst that chaos underwent trauma and bereavement. I am not discrediting her, but I won't be surprised if she has distorted memories and a skewed narrative of what transpired.

Just thinking about our respective timelines and the paucity of her resources to fact-check -- makes me sympathize with her.

@joanna
🤣🤣🤣
I had a blast yesterday, @lynnb was so funny, half of the time I was laughing while typing after reading the comments.

@Kodra oh no, I'm still here as well, for two reasons. 1. I've already dropped (or never started) every other show. 2. I have a sneaky suspicion about this "plan" of hers. You know when some writers want to write a funny character, but they don't know how to write jokes, they cover it. The scene will start with the character saying "and that's why I don't wear ties" and everyone at the table laughs uproariously. The viewer is meant to think "oh this person is funny", but the writer never has to prove it. I think the writer here is doing the same thing with this "plan" and I want to see if I'm right.

@lynnb
So happy to hear that you are still on. I was afraid I exhausted you the other day and gave up the show. 🤣
Weather good or bad, this show is sure captivating. Even if only for curiosity reasons.

Wait, they didn't initially have a time constraint when they were plotting to have Lee In take the responsibility for sending the spy. He wasn't about to be named King. The torturing and all of that happened before Lee In had the possibility of becoming king. Remember his brother died when Lee In went to go talk to him about the torture. So all of that planning, lying and torturing was not to expedite anything.

@lynnb
They did when he falsified her testimony, I believe. The torture of Hongjung was before, of course. But then, again, his father did all of that believing that Lee In knew the spy because Hongjong's brother said so. It turned out that Hongjong's brother was a traitor all along and that Lee In was the one that exposed the spy. So he might believe that actually the father was the good guy that had to take some drastic measures to achieve that. But his father didn't kill Hongjung after all, it was Lee In that sent her away without medical help. I am playing the devil's advocate on their behalf here, not believing that this is the truth, of course.

He is the GP's, now CP, uncle. I think she met him first through him, but am not sure.

He didn't value-add by virtue of being the cousin of the Crown Prince Mun-seong.

In fact it was the other way round. Mong-woo was the one who scored him an audience with his own royal cousins ! (she specifically tried to lure him to join force with her by promising him an audience with them) 🤣🤣 See? Our former hapless suitor is a narrative dead weight lol

@joanna
Thanks, too late to check how that went yesterday.
But my point still stands in both situations, as in "this is your blood relative I am friends with so I am trustworthy in whatever I will tell you to do" kind of way. She brought a family member in their camp that will have their best interest now and in the future. The CP only had his sister until then. We can discuss if he is competent, if he will protect them and not use them, etc. but that was one of the reasons. No matter how lost and delusional she is right now with her crusade, I still think that she had the best interest for the CP by making sure that the CP had people around to protect him and he is his closest relative.
Another reason besides having someone to dialogue to is that he was the only one she could trust at te palace. Good or bad, she knew he would have her best interest and would have let her know of any court shenanigans and gossip that she couldn't have access to.
Do you think that by stoping Hee-soo having her "date" with Lee-In in that rainy day had any say in Lee In decision after learning of the forged testimony? As in he felt some sort of jelousy because he knew her identity, she dissed him, THE GRAND PRINCE, because of him and that he made her give false testimony/ forged her testimony to protect her, whatever he initially thought at that time?
And I think he had a huge imput in the story since because of that forged letter his dad was killed and nobody had the guts to go against Lee In, thus he became king. And because of that letter, Hongjung brother became a traitor and had his sister killed and Hee-soo almost killed.
As I said, we can discuss anything about him but he is not a plant, although the acting has some resemblance to one.

You don't think a more pragmatic solution would be for them both to NOT step into the house? 🤣🤣

And btw I don't reward staff who "save" me from the problem they created in the first place. I punish them.

If I were an autocrat and the gravity of this problem is tantamount to that of an assassination / life threat, I put you to death.

I'm not the writer, that is what the preview showed. 🤣🤣🤣
Someone got hurt so my guess is that is her who got injured because the alternative would be fatal for her.
Maybe he is testing her, to see how far she will go. Maybe she needs to go all the way to snap out of it.

@joanna
In his defence, he did that already in ep. 4. With her he might see it that it is his fault for her behaviour by almost killing her before. And being his mentor's daughter migh come into play.

@joanna
I just remebered watching @angelshadows50 video that this theme, going all the way ( and you will find the futility of love ), that was first introduced by the kisaeng right before she went all the way that night. Did she find it then and she proceeded with her plan? Will she find the opposite now, by going all the way with her criminal act?

That was the first sageuk I have watched five times, three times in a row, ALL episodes! I still absolutely love it. I only started watching K-drama in early 2021, so that's three years now.

Are you a sageuk fan? If so, pls do watch this series' writer's previous work.

I am here because of the previous work "The Crowned Clown" which is excellent in directing, acting, music, and script. Esp the lead who had to play two different doppelganger characters.

@Joanna , yes I am a sageuk fan. I have seen Crowned Clown once and liked it quite a lot. I have to watch it again, I did not realise the writer is the same. Thanks for the tip!

He also begs his brother to free himself from captivation to become a virtuous king right before he is about to be killed in ep. 4. Also, he first recites the poem after his brother throws him out of the palace upon returning from Qing. I think he knows it all too well but we will see if he can avoid it.
But I wanted to ask you which is a better word, since some call it "Sejak, The Bewitched", both in the title and in the poem. Captivated does not work for me very well ( maybe seized as being possessed) and I find bewitched better fitting.

Re: "But I wanted to ask you which is a better word, since some call it "Sejak, The Bewitched", both in the title and in the poem."

@kodra
My comments: In the original title, that adjective is written as "魅惑". I know on various sites they have carried the translation as "fascinated", "charmed", "bewitched" etc. and they are all correct.

I personally think "captivated" is the closest match for an English translation for these following reasons:

(a) I take into consideration the context of the recited poem. Ambivalence lies at the very core of the emotional dynamics of being "captivated" as expressed in the poem.

There must be the tussle of love and hate in equal measure pulling the person apart, that resulted in them not being able to advance (cos they hate) or retreat (cos they love) towards their lover/enemy. Paralyzed by that internal tug-of-war, they have effectively become a captive (or captivated) even though physically they are not in fetters or bondage.

In chess we even have an idiom for that -- where you hold a chess piece yet hesitate to place the piece. In that paralyzed pause of inaction / hesitation, you are a captive. (we don't see this in Lee-In, but we begin to see this increasingly in the emotions/actions of Mong-woo, she is becoming captivated)

(b) I feel the word "captivating" -- whose root word is "captive" dovetails neatly into the key themes of this story -- this story is centered around a protagonist who willingly undergo captivity and become a hostage for the brother he loves dearly, only to return from exile and be hated by the same man who once loved him dearly. Similar journey for the FL who became a captive out of love for a friend, and returned in hatred for her lover whom she believed to have betrayed her.

(c) "Captivate" also dovetails neatly into the other controlling trope of the series -- baduk. To "capture" is a technical term in Baduk, as opponents seek to capture more territories and stones than you.

Other adjectives like fascinated, or bewitched -- merely captures the positive aspects of being charmed or seduced by a person, but not the deep ambivalence of feelings engendered. "captivated" is darker and more sinister in tone, cos it suggests you are captured and trapped because you can neither advance or retreat. That is a precarious position to have.

@joanna
Thank you, I highly appreciate it! 🙏