For @kiara

Episode 11:

I struggled to get through it, especially the first half. The second half was a tad more entertaining just because the escaped slaves thing added a bit of stakes but ultimately that also was superfluous and poorly set up, so it was cheap entertainment:

I can handle angst and pining but not at the expense of dumb writing, which this clearly has maintained over the break and is in a rut of.

So I’m just not really feeling the separation angst; his pining, RE crying, and found her staring at the Moon after her wedding night to be tasteless and hardly romantic.

The background of the boys stealing slaves from under the noses of the Qing previously should’ve been established in prior epsiodes and especially before they did what they did in 10 with Ryang Eum’s character. He can’t be truly sympathetic as a half Qing ex slave when you’ve constantly only focused on his petty ruinous jealousy and one sided crush instead of his and JH’s backstory.

Then the slavery sub plot is revealed to only serve as background morbidity to get Gil Chae to Qing and foreshadow what is to come, rather than having a place in the story or history itself.
Additionally for which she didn’t need to be married to SL guy in the first place, or for him to even exist.

So that whole arc of episodes 9 and 10 still didn’t need to happen either, and only exists to drag out the angst to torture the characters and the viewers.

The only reason I can see her being married for is as @Kiara had also pointed out, to drive home and capitalise on the spoiled women angle, and put Gil Chae through it even more, which is both really trashy, but also is contrived because there’s no *internal* story reason or historical background for this to happen, unlike the first half which made sure its stakes, plot and therefore its tension were based in something and paralleling something and so the heaviness of the subject matter was more enjoyable and also more justified.

Not saying this^ didn’t happen at all in history, it did, and so did all the other awful things that happened in these eps, but the story now feels cut up and disjointed rather than everything flowing and being connected and making sense and the writing using all the parts and locking them altogether to tell the story;

A Qing envoy just oh so conveniently HAPPENS to spy GC, tales a liking to her and kidnaps her, and there's only the bare minimum of effort of tying this in to the rest of the episode or the story, or even history. Can you say CONTRIVED any louder?

They missed their opportunity for getting GC to Qing in a way that felt right, and did this instead.

The break made me forget exactly how intensely this show pulls me in. I wasn't sure if I was as enthusiastically up for the rest whatever the episode 10 ending and time skip showed, but I was still kind of hopeful and that hope was rewarded so emphatically. I loved these two episodes, the threads it addressed from before and the layers it added to things we've seen already.

Both Jang Hyun and Gil Chae are mourning their lost chances, but not stuck in their lives. They're adults who are trying their best in their own settings to move forward, even if it seems like their connection still hasn't waned at all with time.

Gil Chae is every inch the hero of the story with how she keeps trying her best and pulling up every inch of courage to protect herself and the people she loves through trying times. She's brave and resourceful and even when she's desperate and broken down, she's still trying her best to survive and make sure whoever's with her (Jong Jong now, Eun Ae and Madam Bang and her family before) survives too. I wonder if her hesitation to contact Jang Hyun wasn't fully about vanity (or guilt) but also her thinking that he would be in trouble if he got embroiled with her the way people harboring the escapees did. The note in blood and scarring were truly badass moves.

I love that the historical setting isn't an excuse to make Jang Hyun a casual misogynist. He's not giving long preachy speeches, he's just showing exactly what a real man should do. For a self professed amoral opportunist, he has flaws but he's more a genuine hero and a real decent human being than most of the men obsessed with roles and morals around him. I loved him just spending all his money on a growing hidden village of escaped captives. It might have ended brutally but it was still charming that it happened.

I loved the Ryang Eum flashback because it solidifed their connection even more, with him being the moral center of their trio usually. Jang Hyun might have helped later anyway, but Ryang Eum was the impetus for the urgency of it where Jang Hyun seemed more resigned to the brutality of it all and the urge to survive, so his betrayal of Jang Hyun's feelings for Gil Chae gained an even bigger dimension. I love that Ryang Eum is now just kind of confused and trying his best to protect Gil Chae even though he doesn't much care for her, but he cares for what Jang Hyun thinks of her. I feel sad for him, and I hope they reconcile soon and he gets to fall in love with some other man who can be his.

The less said about Won Moo the better. I had some hopes for him early on, but he's a lying coward. Behaving like this after two years of being together is such a creepy move, I hope his death is imminent because he really adds nothing to the story except me feeling sad for Gil Chae to be saddled with him.

Finally, loved the sneaky clever editing reflecting the end of episode 10 with the end of episode 12 to finally show what the full context of...

Thanks for the recap @alathe!
Whew! What a way to dive back in Joseon after the several weeks worth of wait. The brutality towards the captives were very hard to watch. I still do not understand the decisions of the King and his ministers. But the Joseon people are suffering so much because of it.

The separation is taking a toll on Jang Hyun so he keeps himself busy with royal orders, taking care of prisoners of war and telling off the Crown Prince. The confrontation between CP and Jang Hyun was so charged. We get to see the clash of their ideologies but Jang Hyun is not backing down in getting the prince to see his point. I want to see more of Prince SoHyeon rather than the sycophant ministers and paranoid King.

It took me a moment to make sense of the time line regarding Ryang Eum. Since there are scenes with him in Simyang and Hanyang but I sorted it out eventually. So it looks like he has his own lady friend in the present but also takes the time to check on Gil Chae to torment himself.

So Gil Chae went through the marriage but got captured by unscupulous Qing mercenaries. The husband is aware of what happened in GC previous disappearance and thinks its part 2. Also blames Eun Ae. Okay whatever Officer Gu with your distrust, jealousy and inferiority complex. Eun Ae and husband are not saints but they did their best for GC. So I fear how Officer Gu will treat Gil Chae when he gets her back from Simyang. We know he loves her but we can see his jealousy may override that.

Gil Chae has the worst luck but it all looks contrived to get her to Simyang for more interaction with Jang Hyun and co.
Now what interests me is how Blue Mask will come into play. Is she a friend or a foe? What will happen when JH and GC finally meet?

I love the way this show stays laser-focused on the the question of whose lives and whose dignity matters, and whose is considered disposable. It's often hard to watch, but it never shies away from the brutality of war or the of the social systems each regime is trying to uphold.

Got the invite call from my dream school, still watched the show next day with tears.

- The small complaint - the two episodes could have easily be one and nothing would significantly change; JH misses GC, GC is going through hell and episode ends with JH seeing -but not really- GC.

- The prince's storyline is definitely something I am a bit too invested in. I definitely want him and his surprisingly resourceful wife to have their happy ending...at least here.

- At its core the show is about survival and thirst for life. Putting aside JH's angsty moment and readiness to die at that one moment, both leads are still going through their life even after losing each other - JH does his best to be a decent human being and GC is still working hard to survive.

- I hate how much I get her decision to not contact JH. Leaving him, she was making a point that she can live better without him. If she asks him for help, it would hurt not only her pride but also her view of herself as someone capable.

- Gosh. I hate the king. Not much to add here.

- I am not sure if it is me reading too deeply here, but I get irrationally angry at people either criticizing Gil Chae's decision to get married or simply hating her for hurting poor Jung Hyun. She had no way out after she decided to stay and even if she had, should she have remained single just because Jung Hyun left? She dared to get married in 17th century, when a woman would have been safer with a husband. She is not any less worthy for that.

Yes, it was chilling when he said no husband ever came to get his wife. However, these episodes still made me cry, yearn, and want to fight. Gil Chae is so great, she still has her vanity, but my girl is a SURVIVOR, and will do anything to protect her own and the people she loves. None of those men deserve her.

Angst in a romance story is great (tragic melodramas are my bread and butter after all) but there comes a saturation point for me where it's just borderline too much angst and pain which has the unfortunate effect of me going from rooting for the OTP to feeling like maybe they're honestly better apart? I'm not really feeling the effects of the angst like I did in the last part, but will give benefit of the doubt to the fact that it could be because the momentum had been broken slightly by the time that's passed in between the two parts. I didn't expect a massive 💕 reunion in these two episodes, but the decision to have GC marry the other dude and still keep our OTP separated me going 😤. I'm not made at her per se, because I get why she did, but I'm just a little tiffed at the writing choices because I feel like there could've been some different choices made. Pacing also has me raising my eyebrows a bit, because we've got 8 episodes yes, but it felt like a lot of the scenes & plot points across eps 9-12 could've been condensed and more tightly written idk.

I'll admit I was kind of more occupied with what I was annoyed with so only some part of my brain clocked the fact that this is still a very fascinating story about history and humans trying their best to survive. I think I need to go back and rewatch, maybe adjust my expectations on the romance angle, and pay more attention to the politics and other subplots that were occurring.

Alathe, thanks for the recap.

The poor folk being knocked about between two governments

I’ll recommend the KBS Drama Special Return Home (2012)
Covers the same era and issues post war return of people to Qing.
Excellent reference /homework for our show. Available on YouTube.

Episode 12 had the same ending as episode 10, minus the green of Gil Chai's dress. I bet Jang Hyun spooks the woman's horse and removes her veil while others capture Gil Chai. The teaser showed him meeting Gail Chai, kneeling on the road amidst milling people (he probably killed half of them to reach her).
With that out of the way, first thing - live watch felt different than binge watch, especially episode 11. The series did something that many magnum opuses end up doing - going for the artwork by adding so many layers that the core story and characters get lost. It's as bad as a narrative that is too eager to tell a story without pausing on the nuances. So episode 11 was all about nuances, pauses, more pauses, torture, more pauses, more torture, and it went on and on until it paused on a look that turned out to be - just another look. I am okay with learning the stories of characters who dot the landscape. It adds to the depth. However, too much of it and it takes away the focus.
I also have issues with how they picked up the threads. Gil Chae's yearning for Jang Hyun felt forced. The runaway-saving side of Jang Hyun felt forced. The volte-face of Ram Yeung felt forced. The entire drama of getting Gil Chai to Ming looked forced. It was too contrived, like a plot convenience rather than an organic development. An easy way would have been to show the maidservant getting kidnapped and Gil Chae trying to save her rather than having that out-of-character outburst on the old man.
My husband left half through episode 11 and has shown no interest in episode 12. Contrast this with another historical show we saw a few months ago, where he used his precious lunch hour in a hectic schedule to watch an episode in his car in his company's parking lot using his phone hotspot just because it got uploaded by noon on Viki.
It reminds me of The Glory - the pacing and narrative of the first eight episodes were so different than the last eight that it showed up even in binge-watch.
What I loved:
#The sheer terror in Gil Chai's eyes when she sees the boiling water or her revulsion when the man reaches into her bodice to retrieve the ornament.
#Jang Hyun's "Can you call me an ugly piece of rock?" The man broke my heart.
#The Crown Princess' knowledge of farming.
#Acknowledging that autocratic, selfish, self serving cowards commit more war crimes than the attackers themselves.
#"No husband has come looking for his wife...." encapsulating Joseon mores, and the reality of many many eastern societies even today who tell their daughters to commit suicide rather than let their modesty breached....
However, it was Ji Seung-Hyun's turn as the Captain Won Moo and a grieving husband that stole my attention. The man is doing justice to being picked as a bonafide SML. While the angle of his marriage to Gil Chai looks entirely redundant now, he owned the scenes where his rage and jealousy cloud his judgement and the eventual shame and grief at the...

I love well done angst. But pain-porn isn't my scene. I didn't watch the latest episodes after watching the trailer, and now I'm glad I read the recap instead. Nope, not watching this exhausting and convoluted love story. Will stick to recaps.

Maybe someone has already said it, My Dearest reminds me a lot with Gone With The Wind and Gil-chae resembles Scarllet O'hara. So I'm not surprised when the writer made her married someone else, not Jang-hyun.

This is what I realized while I watched these first two episodes of Part II: Although the parallels have diminished over time, like GWTW, "My Dearest" is political and social commentary masquerading as a love story. For me to truly enjoy it--and it has so many things to enjoy--I have to stop thinking of it as a romance.

I don't say this with any rancor; GWTW is a masterpiece even though a) the writer of the novel had deeply wrong and ahistorical beliefs that colored her depiction of the pre- and post-Civil War South and b) the main love story is one of the most frustrating and unsatisfying to ever exist. And "My Dearest" is a masterpiece in its own right, with a much more modern and empathetic view of the victims of human atrocities like abuse, misogyny, slavery, and poverty. But in both cases, the love story wasn't and isn't really the point. The desperate and doomed affection the main couple shares gives the story its emotional weight while also providing the kind of hope for a happy ending that keeps viewers watching multiple scenes of terrible suffering. Yet I suspect more and more that because this isn't a true love story that it's never going to be fully satisfying on that front. It's going to continue to be a lot of longing and yearning with very little, if any, payoff.

I say all of that not to criticize, but just to explain why my viewing lens has shifted this time around. And as such, I was less disappointed in some of the weaker aspects of the romance than I would have been watching Part I. For one thing, I would have been a lot more upset to realize that the entire plot involving the disintegration of Gil Chae's marriage was foreshadowed for us the minute Jang Hyun uttered that line about real men not blaming women for the fact that a man sexually assaulted them (I paraphrase, but that was the gist). As much as I applaud any strike back against the patriarchy in a very patriarchal time, I guess I'm not really interested in seeing a mostly stable marriage break down because the husband can't overcome social prejudice that declares his life worthless because she didn't have the "courage" to take her life after being manhandled or raped by the enemy. I also already know Jang Hyun is the better man, not just generally, but for Gil Chae. So this dichotomy is unnecessary for that reason as well, and its existence means that when these two estranged lovers meet again, it will be to further move this plot point along. I frankly would have preferred a more organic and less melodramatic reunion for these two.

BTW, I have absolutely no issue with Gil Chae having married when she did, or the fact that she's done her best to be a loyal, honorable wife to him. She did what she had to do to survive and protect her loved ones, and although she is infatuated with Jang Hyun and could love him, running away would have unleashed a torrent of self-hatred on Gil Chae's part which ultimately would have poisoned their life...

Wait just a minute! Are you telling me that KISS was Jang Hyun’s imagination and not a flashback? I would think that in the middle of a battle and hoping to die he would think back to an actual memory rather than be hallucinating, and that the drama was just filling in a scene that was not shown in Ep. 10. Is he actually losing his mind? Am I going crazy too? *whimpers*
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So, after watching Ep. 12 I have not changed my mind about Episode 11, so I’ll just link the post I wrote about it. https://www.dramabeans.com/members/wishfultoki/activity/1469602/
Additional comments about both episodes:

1) I understand now that the drama is aiming to be an epic about the suffering of the Joseon people during and after the Qing invasion. YouTube comments tell me that Korean audiences were greatly moved by these episodes, and I wouldn’t argue that the fate of the Joseon people, especially women, was horrendous. Furthermore, the drama has done very well in making my blood boil at seeing Joseon men “enjoying” the company of Qing women, but shunning Joseon women who have been “tainted” through no fault of their own.

2) I’d also commend the drama for daring to take place outside of Joseon, and doing its best to show Qing customs, even if the Manchu language is sounding more and more like Korean.

3) Narratively, I feel like the drama is spreading itself thin. It is losing its tight grip on the timeline through excessive time skips and flashbacks, making it hard to follow how the characters change over time. It is losing its focus on the main characters. Eun Ae has practically disappeared. Gil Chae had very little screen time in Ep. 11.

3) Even Jang Hyun, who is seen pining and suffering at length, is still an enigma. An Ep. 12 flashback finally confirmed that his background is indeed noble, which we can tell from the outfit he was wearing as a kid. But then a new mystery was added in the form of an elder sister (?) who it seems died rather than live with shame – and somehow that has motivated him to speak up to the Crown Prince and help Joseon captives. Did it motivate him before as well, during the war, when we thought he just did everything for Gil Chae? Does it have anything to do with his aversion to marriage, since he has no aversion to risking life and fortune for strangers in need? I love a good anti-hero, but I want to know what makes him tick.

I assumed that the flashback of the multiple kisses was a real memory. It didn't occur to me that it could have been Jang Hyun's imagination. He wasn't in his usual tipsy or drunken state when he was reminiscing about Gil Chae. BUT I also thought when did they have time to kiss???! It feels like the writer inserted the OTP flashbacks to emphasize their romance after the uproar and criticism of the first half's cliffhanger and concerns about the female leads changing. (The multiple kiss scene was still sweet.)

Another random one was where they talked about his gift to her - a new outfit. This EP 12 flashback lines up with their scene way back in EP 7. It is supposedly before their meal with Eun Ae and Yeon Joon. (I went back and matched their hanboks lol.)

EP 11 was definitely the slower episode. EP 12 moved better and we got to see more of Gil Chae. But ugh, the writer holding back on their reunion. I don't think Jang Hyun knows that Gil Chae is in Shenyang yet.

I didn't mind the brutal scenes this time. It was a serious look at the situation for the Joseon slaves and citizens. However, I hope they don't keep showing the same abuse and torture in the future episodes.

I was surprised that Gil Chae escaped being the King's servant so quickly. I'm curious about what lies ahead for her.

Anyway, there were and always has been some gorgeous camera shots and gorgeous Namgoong Min shots (shared on my fanwall xD). Still enjoying this show and can't wait for more.

At the opposite of a lof Beanies, I didn't like this couple in the first part. I found them way more interesting when they were separated. When a couple spent more time to hurt each other than spending lovely moments together, I wish them to find someone they can be honest with.

So I didn't like that the writer used their nice moment as a memories we didn't see in direct like when JH was explaining business to GC. I never found their love as strong as he can't forget her...

GC becoming a rich noble because she had to and because she was surrounded by incompetent men is what it's interesting me or JH helping his own people and juggling the politics. I wished they made the Crown Prince more important to the story and working with JH. I don't understand why they always showed him half-sick when he continues to expand his family without any issue...

So GC sending back in Quinq when she's a noble, married and her husband is an official looked a little bit capilotracted. In one episode, she avoided a lot of things too. 😅 I was surprised she didn't have kid in 2 years.

The break between parts 1 and 2 seems to have done me good. The first two episodes stressed me out much less than I had originally expected (okay, at the end of episode 2 I was a bit shaken up). At the same time, I had actually hoped that Gil-chae would not be married (anymore) at the beginning of the second part, because I find it more difficult to imagine how it could lead to a marriage between her and Jang-hyun (assuming that we continue to follow the plot of GWTW), taking into account the customs and rules of the time.

I am still convinced that Gil-chae made the right decision with her marriage, considering the circumstances of life and women's options at the time. Therefore, I am also glad that she did not have an unhappy or abusive marriage. I was afraid that her husband would make her regret that she was on the verge of eloping with someone else.
Of course, this may change in the next episodes. Won-moo is certainly better than many men of his time who would not bring back their kidnapped wife because they are considered tainted for stupid reasons of honour (how much suffering has so-called honour actually brought upon people, no matter the time or the people?). But as soon as he has the slightest doubt that there is more between Gil-chae and Jang-hyun again, jealousy will probably turn him into a monster.

Said honour should play an important role in Part 2, after all we have already seen thrice in these two episodes what Jang-hyun thinks of it. Once when he tells Yeong-rang that no good man would see her as tainted. Another time when he asks the Crown Prince "why should we be sad about a certain person's humiliation, yet someone else's humiliation is a crime that deserves death?". And of course there is the memory of his sister, who committed suicide after humiliation.
Even today, some still seem to have double standards, judging by the comments I have read (not here, but on other sites). For them, it is a huge problem that Gil-chae is no longer pure, no longer a virgin, because of her marriage. I'm sure, Jang-hyun sees it differently and it has nothing to do with being a lovesick fool.

I thought it was a bit too much that Jang-hyun saved just about every slave. This also does not fit his character as portrayed in part 1. Of course, he had compassion for the weaker ones even then, but he was definitely not a knight in white armour. He had only made an exception for a few people who were particularly close to his heart.

By the way, I am sure that Jang-hyun did not see Gil-chae on the square. He probably won't recognise her on the field either, but will think his subconscious is playing tricks on him. Only when he receives Jong-jong's message will he have doubts.

Question for @kiara : can you pinpoint —in historic time— when this edict to sent back escapees and reward denunciates and punish helpers was issued? I cannot find anything so far re the exact date .... I would have thought that would be available, since this is such a shameful thing to do, but of course ... being stuck between a rock and a hard place is not an easy thing to solve, especially for a rather incapable king ...

I finally posted an —only slightly— interpretative translation of Hwang Jin-Young’s interview with a Korean film magazine on my fan wall : https://www.dramabeans.com/activity/p/1470169/

(Beware that I do not speak Korean but use Google Translate and try to smooth out with some language interpretation the translation I receive. For (South) Korean there are several ways of transcribing the language into English as you know, and this makes it very complex. Especially if you add that there is Manchu transposed into Hangul, and Hanja, and then Classical (Literary) and Traditional Chinese added into the mix of words used at the time and in «My Dearest» as well.)

Also, as I have written before, chronology in East Asia is, until the 20th century, a case of era names, of which there are several ways of doing that, and using the sexagesimal cycle. Additionally, using the moon calendar for «real» dates, rather than the sun (Gregorian) calendar as we do (by using the Christian system —which, additionally, only recently got the non-religious variation of the «common era» chronological counting). None of this is explained to a Western audience, so we are somewhat all over the place with our analyses. (That might even be true for a South-Korean audience who is younger.)

The interview with the scriptwriter was published in mid-March 2023. I write in my post that I understand now somewhat better, what she was saying and about her process of writing a script for her aas well as her values as a writer and human being. So when I read the criticisms of @sicarius and others, I get what they are saying, but … I believe it is not what the scriptwriter is doing. [I’ll post my thoughts on that separately, a bit later, once I have properly collected them and formed into words.]

Like others, I tried to get the timeline of the last 4 episodes straight for myself on the weekend. @kiara has posted (in this thread) a timeline which makes sense. Like her, I centered my starting point around the Crown Prince’s (first) visit to Joseon. The fact that MBC —for whatever real reason— split the drama into 2 parts with a month’s hiatus, has helped all who want to understand the true history of the presentation better to work it out themselves, but it also makes it a bit confusing right now, where we are at exactly, timewise.

Someone mentioned the « two years later » line at the end of episode 10 as a cheap trick to keep the interest going. Maybe so. Although it was not necessary, as I believe, Nielsen Media results for Korea have shown and will show going forward, too. Rakuten Viki audience’s voting is also one of the highest I have seen on the international streaming site. And I still maintain that mostly their translation is better than that of Kocowa, as they explain things closer to the language than smoothing it out for an English-speaking audience. — But of course, a film series such as « My Dearest » costs a lot of money so ratings often indicate revenue and...

A FEW MORE THOUGHTS I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT :

On the aspect of prisoners of war the Manchu made into slaves once captured, and on the aspect of Joseon women being kidnapped and made into slaves and «comfort women» (a term used by Japanese for Korean women they abused during wartime, WW II this is) …. And once both men and women tried to escape and return to Joseon, what happened to them — this is the large backdrop of the last two episodes of « My Dearest » (ep. 11 and 12), starting already in ep. 9 when Inggūldai makes Jang Hyeong a slave hunter. It is also the storytelling way Lady Yoo, Gil Chae, gets into Simyang/Shenyang/Mukden. (which @Sicarius did not like at all).

Apparently these people were called « juheion » [Ep. 11, 57’15 mn]. The reaction of Joseon society seemed to have been —in particular towards the women— one of ostracising : they were alive, but dead to the world (they might even be killed by their relatives) ; on one hand the society, in particular the court, dogmatised in its neoconfucian beliefs, on the other hand, people tried to buy back their relatives ; but this was mostly unsucessful, only about 2000 people returned to Joseon that way. — Yet, the number of 500,000 captives from Joseon in Qing post Bjongyahoran seems to be overstated (just by calculating numbers, the Manchu society would not have been able to support that many people in their lands, as they too, needed to be fed and be clothed even if they were “mere” slaves).

From a vantage point of a 21st century world, the dogmatisation and political fractionalisation in Joseon after the Imjin War and the inherent female-averse partriarchial forms build into neoconfucianism seem to be the root causes in the 16th century for a series of disasters befalling the Korean society at that time (and onwards) — never mind the other two scourges of humanity, famine and plague (aka smallpox, in these lands).

It also seems that the Jurchen/Manchu/Qing did not leave the same kind of « verbrannte Erde » (scourced earth) as the Japanese did after their invasions. The Qing needed Joseon to support them ; once they had reassurance that this would happen, the relationship seemed to have stabilised. But that was BEYOND Injo’s time, it appears, maybe only starting with Sukjong.

I have posted a series of excerpts from a very good source on my fan wall. Starts here `: https://www.dramabeans.com/activity/p/1470791/

@alathe, thank you! I meant to say this before. I could never write in such a fun way with a tone of voice which is mockingly engaged and caring. I really like your writing style. :)

Loved these two episodes. The husband showed his lack of loyalty, trust and understanding when he thought his wife absconded with Jang-Hyun. I believed he cooked the goose on that marriage.

I want to know what happened to Jang Hyun's noona.