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[Drama Chat] When the antagonist wins

This week’s chat was suggested by @britney who brings up an interesting question: Where are the dramas in which the antagonist wins in the end? Outside of dramaland this might happen more often, but dramaland is normally a place for happy endings — where love conquers all, all traumas are healed, and a Truck of Doom can’t even do much damage. Of course there are outliers, especially now, as dramas start to delve into darker fare.

So, what are some dramas where the antagonist wins in the end? Did it work, or did you flip tables? Is there ever an instance of this in dramaland where it’s satisfying?

 
Let the chatting begin!
 
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This is a very interesting prompt. I don't know any show like that though. I'll look forward to reading everyone's answer.
If the question was "where the protagonist loses everything in the end", I may be able to name a show or two.

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Do anti-heroes like Vincenzo count?

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I am wondering... But by creating a public enemy that Vincenzo has to fight, they made him a protagonist.

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I know Stranger 1&2, Life, Blood Free, Grid had the antagonists winning substantially. But I equally appreciated that it wasn't only the people, sometimes the antagonists was the system and the people who utilize its flaws for their benefits.

Another antagonist winning I recall is Fly Dragon. This one had me quite emotional cause sometimes, I didn't even know what to feel about the episodal antagonists. Those people were unapologetic about their actions and they stuck to their guns, and won.

Another antagonist winning... I'll give it to the underdog On The Verge of Insanity. Very realistic take on the cutthroat corporate world. Yes, they got out of it. But, they essentially lost the fight with the company board. To our joy, they came together to found a saner work environment and it became successful.

The latest one is Uncle Samsik. I'm so sad he died without tasting pizza. I don't know which part of the victory the antagonists had hurt: that Samsik died, or that he died before tasting pizza. I don't know if the An Ki-chul counts as an antagonist but I was so angry when his doings were revealed.

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On the verge of insanity was an awesome drama.

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Uncle Samsik, Taemin and Hanmin 🥲 I was so sad that things worked out that way.

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Memories of Alhambra: The killing game won 😏 cc:@sicarius

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🤣🤣🤣 that Cursed Jeffrey. I'm still fighting him to this day.

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OOOOh, never thought of that: They should have told the story from the game's perspective! Trying to maintain rules and normal processes when a bunch of people are dead set on ruining every single game.

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This is a tough one. After all, these are K-dramas and, when they end poorly, it's usually because of poor writing rather than "surprise topsy-turvy endings" in which the antagonist wins. So, most of these are going to be judgment calls, I bet, rather than clear-cut cases.

That said, the prompt is careful--we are talking about antagonists not "villains."

I think there's a case to be made that every time a tsundere male lead doesn't quiiite make it into the audience's good graces, it could be considered a time when the antagonist wins. For me, this was true for SURE with Miss Night and Day. Gye Ji-un never came close to redeeming himself for me after his horrible workplace behavior towards Miss Day (Im Sun), and he also never really convinced me of any authentic affection for Miss Night (Lee Mi-jin) either. And yet, there he was, talking about how he deserved love, walking off into the sunset right there at the end.

A second way to construe the prompt is to focus on the times when the "antagonist" isn't necessarily a human but instead a supernatural force. In this case the most obvious example of when the antagonist "wins" is directed at Kim Shin in Goblin.

And, finally, if hated tropes/plot devices also count as "supernatural forces" who can serve as antagonists, then the prime example would of course be when noble idiocy killed Seon Woo-hyeol in HeartBeat.

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This is an excellent analysis! I was also thinking in terms of antagonists who are the protagonist, and thus, they win at the end but are also no longer truly "antagonists." The best example of this dramatic reversal I can think of is the ML and SML in Falling for Innocence, where their roles within the drama do a complete reversal. Heavy handed? Yes, but really well done. The other starts-as-antagonist and wins at the end drama I can think of is the ML of Feel Good To Die. I also think I'm just not watching the genres where this is most likely to happen... (i.e., vigilante dramas and the like).

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Thanks! I've not seen either of the two dramas you mention...would you recommend them? Is one better/more interesting/more dramatically effective than the other?

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Hmm... Falling for Innocence is a melodrama with tones of makjang with Jung Kyung-ho, who was excellent. I was really impressed with the handling of the themes and the use of dramatic reversal (in character development and outcomes), but it is heavy handed at times. I would recommend it, but it also made me quite emotional haha 😅
I'm not sure where Feel Good To Die is to watch anymore; it seems to have disappeared from Viki. It's essentially a Kdrama version of Groundhog Day, and I was VERY impressed with how that plot device was carried out and made to feel fresh as the characters figure out how to escape the time loop. This one has LOTS and LOTS of character development in order to affect the change in the antagonist. I wouldn't call either of these dramas "excellent," taken as a whole (they both falter a little in the denouement), but they were both very dramatically effective for me as a viewer. FFI is more melodrama, and FGTD is more dramatic comedy!

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...oooooh Korean version of Groundhog Day? I think that's going on my list. I see Feel Good to Die on Kocowa right now 😉

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Yes, but you seem to have missed the meaningful message of Heartbeat. Noble idiocy is what makes us human. Just as forced separation and a time skip complete a romance.

Maybe kdramas tropes are their own antagonists, representing the yin and yang of the human condition. I need a Kopiko coffee candy in order to give that idea some thought.

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I realized thinking about this that despite my love for more serious shows which often have sad endings, I can't think of many where the antagonists unquestionably "won". There are shows like Nokdu Flower, where the Japanese clearly win in the short term, but the show's ending points towards a future where that will no longer be the case. The only show I can think of where the antagonists' triumphs made me want to flip a table was Conspiracy in the Court, and that wasn't because they succeeded - it was because they succeeded not due to their superior planning or intellect but because their folks could run faster than the protagonists.

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You mentioning Nokdu Flower reminded me that Tale of Nokdu also ends with the villain ascending the throne. Kang Tae-oh's character (King Injo) wasn't the only villain or even the main villain in the show but he was definitely evil for a large part of it.

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I'd say, in ToN leads won much more than any of villains in the end. Also huge props to evil SML for showing the previous King how badly he messed up, I literally cheered during final "take that!" reveal!

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... it was because they succeeded not due to their superior planning or intellect but because their folks could run faster than the protagonists.

😂😂😂. I'd flip it too.

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If the antagonist is the writer, there will be some that comes to mind and I do want to flip tables.

But in the story itself, none comes to mind right now.

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My Country : Even if we knew about History, it hit hard.

Every drama about Japanese occupation? In Mr Sunshine, for example, the end was very bitter.

In Moving, I didn't really feel like the protagonists won... They were manipulated during their whole life.

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My Country? The antagonist did win, but at what price?

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Over 500 years of discrimination against the lower class and women. That's the legacy of creating Joseon, the nobles' country.

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No Gain No Love: The antagonist wins

The company: number one spot in the industry with one trillion in revenue
The FL: profits from her ideas in his company and invests in her startup
The ML: kicks him out of his company and sends him abroad
The secretary: never transfers him despite his promise and calls him a traitor for quitting to pursue his career
The girl: never breaks up with her or forced to be separated
The screen time
The spin-off

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Haha when you put it that way haha

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LOL I know what you mean.
I think I felt that way while watching Lovely Runner.
I mean, the FL had to relieved the most traumatic experience of her life over and over again, plus, she literally lost 15 years of her life like five times. She had to live with the memories of a life that didn't happen, and no memories of the one she allegedly lived.

The way I see it, the killer won every single time.

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Maybe Strangers from hell. Lee Dong Wook's character died, but he created a monster out of the main lead, and he was kinda happy about it at his last seconds.
And maybe Squid game. That old man, creator of a game, consider as antagonist? I remembered their bet at the last episode with Lee Jung Jae's character. They bet on whether someone would save a homeless man who was freezing on the street. Some person really saved homeless man, but I think, Lee Jung Jae's character still lost his bet, because he could save him himself. He could not wait others to do it why man could freeze to death, but his gambling addiction won

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*not "why", while

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Oh! I watched a youtube video about Strangers from Hell! (I haven't watched it myself) but they said it was interesting to view it as the story of an unreliable narrator. Wasn't the main character an aspiring writer?
The youtube video considered the idea that the show blends the writer's imagination and reality.

Hmm, I don't remember the specifics of that final "bet" in Squid Game but if it's as you say, that's an interesting point.

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Oh, interesting theory, this also can be a case. But the scene when the policewoman saw the bracelet on the main lead's arm a little stands out from this theory for me, don't know why.
About Squid games, I also don't remember the details about the bet, I remember that the old man and the main lead were discussing games. The main lead argued with the old man about whether someone would save a homeless man on the street. And while chatting with the old man, main lead waited and watched, not thinking about saving him himself.

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I agree with Squid Game, although the stress was more on the protagonist losing (by "winning" or by playing the game in the first place.)
What a shame, though, that they felt compelled to do a sequel--except that it might be the best indication that the real antagonist--predatory capitalism--won!

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Who knows, maybe sequel will have a good plot. I also think the ending of first season was good and showed enough: protagonist still gambling addiction, maybe he become better person, but he won't be able to live without games now and the adrenaline he got from them.
Maybe protagonist of the first season will become antagonist, at least I think they can show more things than just games. So I will watch second season and will hope it won't disappoint.

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Hong Gil Dong's ending still haunts me. It was one of the first dramas I saw, and the found family there was lovely.

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What inspired this prompt: I watched the japanese drama House of Ninja and was left😐 afterwards.

First, I thought the show was gonna be a family comedy about a family of ninjas who just use their skills in every day life. So as things played out, I started feeling a bit like "this isn't exactly what I signed up for".

Then the "twist" happens with the reveal of a certain character and I thought "hmm, okay". Maybe I'm just used to the return of characters so it wasn't *that* jarring for me.

HOWEVER by the end of the drama, the family who I thought were the protagonists ends up being played, ends up losing a loved one, lose their individuality, and are "doomed" to continuing following the rules of the organization for the rest of their lives.

Meanwhile, the antagonists played the long game apparently and eventually had things play out how they wanted and ended up in an even more powerful position, setting the stage for their further plans.

After I watched this, I was like what did I just watch? How am I supposed to feel?

The lead actor was also the writer or director (I don't remember which but this was *his* baby) and I think he said it was a story about family. That wasn't my takeaway. My takeaway was just feeling like... adrift? Like it didn't fit into a distinct box so I didn't know how to feel about it. I don't even know if I consider it a good show or not.

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I saw this one as well, and I was thinking it was one of those bad endings that is explained by it being set up for a sequel, or a part 2? But I don't think a part 2 has been guaranteed yet, which is one of the reasons I hate those kind of endings.

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I thought it was setting up a S2 or part 2 as well but it also seemed like that was the intended ending. It's a weird feeling.

Like it feels "wrong" that it ended that way

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KBS’s HEARTBEAT (2023) (Amazon Prime). Imo the antagonists who won were the drama’s scriptwriters. They did Taec wrong.

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EXTRAORDINARY YOU - the ultimate example of "rage against creator" trope. Yes, it's sorta happy for OTP in the end, but to call THAT a win?! Someone pls make a fanfic where The Writer of it dies from aneurysm mid-story, leaving plot forever unfinished and poor characters finally free from that psycho sadist's grasp...

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Oh yes, all the characters just being in another drama was such a shame. They did not win against the writer. Them taking over their own world and getting to write it themselves would be so much better.
This also brings to mind W, which had a similar problem, but I can’t remember the details. The writer got caught up in a loop and the character couldn’t break free, which was such a shame. I think it’s a problem of parallel/embedded setups in kdramas, the writers can’t seem to bring characters into the human world or resolve things well in the fantasy world.

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W is somewhat better because ML did manage to get out and live his life freely after manhwa wrapped. Which is similar to how EY's source material webtoon ends, only there leads don't cross over into real world but gain the ability to jump between many fictional dimensions however they like (or was it just FL? anyway, she was 100% free from narrative constraints and their future looked rather optimistic because there was no "written in stone paper" certainty to it anymore). Why didn't the drama go the same route... I wonder if it's a cultural thing - yunno, encouraging hardcore rebellion against the system is bad, blah-blah...

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The show hasn't finished, but I can't stop thinking that the Justitia/Bit Na in The Judge From Hell feels like the antagonist who wins every single time.

The ML "is the good cop" and she's "the serial killer demon". But he can't catch her. No matter how hard he tries.

I know we have the real "bad guys" hidden somewhere, but, right now, she's the one who needs to be stopped.

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I don't know if this is the right phrasing but I thought she would count as a villian protagonist.

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Ohhh. I don't know the difference.
Bit Na feels like the antagonist because the show is against her. But I guess it only works if it isn't the main character. Makes sense. 😅 My bad.

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I read db recaps and just watched the intro of the first episode. I was weirded out Justitia. How is she fit to judge and provide justice? She just brands Bit na and punishes her without even trying to know anything. I read she even stabs the ml later in a similar way. I liked the movie Along with the gods and how they handle the whole judgement thing. So maybe I am comparing this show with that and feeling weird but still it's silly to see a character who is supposed to provide justice acting like Justitia.

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Well, with her own mouth she chants that "justice is dead", haha. So I understand why you feel that way.
She has her own rules about justice or what's good and bad (even other demons seem to be scared of what she could do to them). Plus, she isn't a judge because she really wants to, this is part of her punishment.

Ohh, and I like this part you mention "it's silly to see a character who is supposed to provide justice acting like Justitia". Because in some cases that's how "justice" works. Just a few weeks ago I read something that happened in RL, as ridiculous as the cases in this show.

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Justitia/Bit Na : I would would characterize her as more of a Anti-Hero that antagonist.

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Since people find it hard to think of shows where antagonists win, I guess that's not much of a thing in kdramas?
Maybe it happens more in movies?

I haven't since Old Boy but I think what happens in it probably counts. Maybe Parasite also counts? Though I guess Parasite is more of an example where perspective matters.

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I was thinking of PARASITE as well, but the rich Park family was not really antagonistic against the Kim family (they hired all the family members, but the Kims resented the Park's wealth and class. No family "won" in the end.

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That's an interesting idea. Parasite reminds me of Steinbeck novels where the protagonists just survive (sometimes) and the world with all it's unfairness wins.

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Just like Kat, I’m thinking more along the lines of “what if the villain is the happenings and the physical demise (i.e. death) of a character instead of an actual character? Because this has definitely been the case for me in recent years of drama-watching more than anything (or anyone), especially for dramas wherein it’s in media res for the opening scene and we as viewers are already being given the ending to a certain plot point/scene/demise of a character, and the rest of the drama is just a giant flashback telling of everything happening before the drama’s opening scene in media res

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Having just watched it, Gyeongseong Creature (Parts 1 and 2) are putting in a bid. In each case, the "human experimentalists" are not destroyed but live to continue their experiments; our ML and FL end up not remembering the other as a result of the experiments. Lady Maeda might be dead; her vision and work is not.

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This seems fitting.
How did the show make you feel? Was it thought provoking? Interesting? Surprising?

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Part 1 was better than Part 2 (which seemed just unnecessary - basically same plot rehashed in a different time period). Part 1 had a great premise, some winsome characters, stunning period setting, some great acting and was interesting enough; romance felt very rushed. Feelings Part 1 = intrigued enough to keep watching, occasionally moved; Feelings Part 2 = occasional "Oh, that explains it" but mostly In-it-for-the-bean. Thought-provoking? Not really. Hope that helps!

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I once saw a European movie. I don't remember what country, but it was about three robbers who invade a house of a couple with a teen daughter. The robbers do every bad thing you can think of, and in the end walk off with the money, with all three protagonists dead.

I HATED the movie so much. I could not believe what I saw. I was like why...

I can't imagine having to watch 16 hours of such torture.

Mr Sunshine comes close. The Japanese won. I have often wondered if she would have even lived long enough to see her country get independence, and what she would think of the division.

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The thing that is interesting, though, in the big picture historically, you could argue that colonization (with several HUGE exceptions) wasn't the worst thing that could have happened to S. Korea. It did forcibly remove the curse of the Joseon era! (Note: I am not defending colonization in general!)

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Honestly, I don't know if it was indeed needed. All countries have changed with times. I doubt Korea would have remained untouched. They might have ended up having a figurehead king with huge changes in the societal norms. World war would also have automatically changed a lot of stuff (which technically it did). I have never been a fan of colonization, and I wonder if NK and SK would have remained one country had it not been for those 40 years of occupation.

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Oh I don't think it was needed As I said, I don't think colonization is generally a positive force in world history. But the occupation did hasten historical change for Korea.

Now whether Japanese colonization brought the conflict between the Soviet Union and U.S. that led to the split of Korea being relatively permanent, I'm a little skeptical. But historical what ifs are impossible to settle!

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seeing Seo In Guk here I could say 38 squad is where law wonbut that was ultimately our fraudsters goal. Like I understand he had to go to jail but... the bromance tho. and they stayed bros anyway, so... it is a little vague. but I like that it wasnt a villain against good guy but a system vs people who try to crumble it.

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Joo Won first drama role, the 2ML in KING OF BAKING or Bread, Love, and Dreams. The character was not a nice person. And while he doesn't completely thwart the ambitions of the hero, he doesn't completely lose either and he gets The Girl.

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As it was based on a true story, viewers knew how it would end, still folks rooted for the antagonist. Iconic whipped cream on lips scene.

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You might say the antagonist won in Lucifer. Or no one won.

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I though about that one for this prompt as well, although I think it's weirdly a show where both leads "win" and "lose" which is one of the reasons I find it so brilliant. It follows all the tropes of a classic revenge story, and yet, at the end, it's really the exact opposite of revenge story. I've never seen a show both use the structure of a genre (very effectively, I might add) and yet manage to completely flip the "meaning" of said genre like this one does.

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