I had a light bulb moment last night.

What if there was more to the library scene than we were shown?

Their demeanour next morning was different. There was a almostlike a non verbal acknowledgement of shared grief and a body language of defeat. Hwan's look and Jay Yi's responding look was telling to me.The resolute way Hwan closed his drawer was not that of a jealous lover as he used to do before.

Dd something happen? It's very likely we might be treated to a flashback.

@minniegupta1, hmm... What exactly could possibly happen? Not a grand confession - it's clearly reserved for the final week. And not kiss/anything beyond. Maybe some heavy on hints dialogue? Might also be just Hwan's reaction to his now very official engagement and all the congratulations. Or he really had an epiphany at the worst moment ever...

@minniegupta1
I don't think anything more happened in the library than what we saw.

Rather, I interpreted the scene of the next morning as simply Hwan being uncomfortable about his impending marriage being talked about in front of Jay-yi.

What if there was indeed a confession where Jay Yi might not name him, but drops enough hints and makes it clear it's him, and that no matter how much she and the dimwit might want it, they cannot have no future together. It could be the time when Hwan finally accepts it's him but that's where it ends. The more I think of it, more plausible it becomes.

Outside the library, he knew why she didn't go to seargent. He had to.

I've had a debate about that on local forum yesterday - imagine her plan works, what will she do once she's old and about to die? Hope one of her grandkids will magically turn out capable enough to follow her footsteps? Leave it to blind luck? Lady's only good at strategy when the end goal is blood and havoc, not stability and peace.

He first needs to respect jay Yi for who she is and see beyond her 'fragile' arms and the 'law and duty' that would effectively make her his chattel. What a terrible outlook. he might not have spent time with her Jay Yi, but he still had enough time to understand she is more than his contract paper.

The other thing that bothered me was the difference of what he said to Jay Yi vs what he said to Hwan. Hopefully its his acute jealousy speaking, having caught on Jay yi and Hwan's love for each other already (the flashback was stupendouly effective, cuts to the chase pretty quick).

If he's only dealt with "fragile" game-playing women who resort to all kinds of tricks to get his attention (like Hwan's sister) how can he possibly know to behave any differently towards a woman he doesn't know until he gets to know her even a tiny bit? Jae-yi is likely the only woman in Joseon behaving like this, it's an innovation and there are no classes for him to take. Plus why should he guess how to behave (and possibly guess wrong) and how would he even realise that treating her 'fragile arms' with such consideration would pi$$ her off - or women viewers a couple of hundred years later, when in his own era the Princess (and probably scores of others) would be enchanted with his manly concern. 😄

"let me help you" would have been nice. "How will you carry this with your fragile arm" - not nice. She has been doing this for about a year now.

Well it was the writers that made him say it!

I’ve been on vacation and traveling all week so missed this whole discussion, but this caught my eye. Was PHS’s Der Todd that bad? I’ve only seen a few rehearsal clips.

@happyokaytales, I wouldn't say bad per se, but imo the vibe was wrong - character is this otherworldly chilling, suave demonic being with little to no human emotions other than creepy obsession with FL he doesn't quite understand himself. And Hyungsik played him like some eccentric, hotblooded human macho with anger management issues))) Too much fire when there was supposed to be ice. The in-your-face sexed up styling he was given didn't help either, boy looked like he's auditioning for Carmen's José instead. I think he was just not ready for such role at the time. Would be interesting to see him repeating it now and compare, I feel like there would be a huge difference - if anything, he certainly learned how to properly do scary since then.

Oh I got it! Man, I am dense. I hope we get it released on music sites as well.

Ofc we're getting it on music sites, there's already pre-orders for a whole OST package going.

Asking her to stop looking would mean to admit there IS something forbidden going on and pop the bubble, so he opted to stay silent and masochistically suffer under the safety cover of his loose robe))) So very him.

Kim Jung Hyun pains like a bleeding beast in Time, but that's not the show I'd recommend to anyone. I was madly impressed by him in Mr Queen nonetheless, that "braincells non found" expression he does for comedy bits is pure gold, and so are his bone-chilling rage scenes. Imo he and Hyungsik are on opposite sides of the spectrum - one is a hot and bitter extra strongly flavored spice blend, while another is a super sweet yet intoxicating mead with flower petals. I cannot say one is better than other, they're exist in totally parallel cuisines to me. Wouldn't refuse a chance to personally do tasting and comparison session though^^

I thought it was Crown Princess (girl's got face I have a hard time remembering) for a second and got worried we'll get Hwan's wedding night in full colors (just thinking about it made me nauseous, grrr). But thankfully it was our girl and yes, she is really gorgeous. Hwan's imagination of her in female clothes was quite pretty as well, but this look is simply unbeatable. They really saved all the best for the last week - both in terms of plot and visuals.

My guess is King will not depose Hwan this time; So kidnap and hostage situation for Hwan to step down or else...and now Hwan knows the truth of Grand Prince so he knows how the game is being played.

@minniegupta1, that's possible. King is not into deposing his son that easily, but I'm not sure his previous resolve to make Hwan succeed him at all costs includes endangering his own position while he's still alive. He seems to suspect he won't live long though... Well, 1 point for accurately reading the room for once, Your Majesty)))

Now the biggest question - how did Queen knew? About Hwan and lengths he'll go for Jaeyi, I mean. Presenting this as a forbidden love affair to Sung On is one thing, even her slimy uncle had the same idea regardless of the actual truth, but was that two-faced Court Lady really this perceptive to notice feelings that were never spoken of nor acted upon? Or was it Queen's female intuition? She seems to read him pretty well to know where to poke to make it hurt and bleed the most.

@Gikata. My guess is from the preview for episode 19 that the rebels will kidnap JaeYi on her way to prison possibly to use as leverage for the Queen against the CP to force him to give up on the throne. She isn't useful to them if she's dead or in prison and will only result in revenge from the CP which will likely derail their plans.

@Gitaka: "Now the biggest question - how did Queen knew?"

Remember the bracelet throwing incident and this entire conversation with the Court lady about personal feelings?

Once they knew who Jay Yi was, and where she lived, it would be easy for the Queen to make deductions. These very conservative societies thrive on gossip, so this closed group probably went all X rated at that when discussing Jay Yi and Hwan.

His spending entire nights at the library probably took on a whole new meaning for this treacherous group.

To add, initially they must have thought he was just having some 'inappropriate' interest in a new toy. It was at the bracelet throwing incident where they truly realize how deep his feelings run, and how this could be used for their cause.

Diabolical.

@minniegupta1, dang, I forgot that she was there too... Yes, that was it. And lol - Hwan's poor reputation just can't catch a break no matter what it! First he was labelled fratricidal, then jerk, then cripple, then victim of a curse and now a horndog with a thing for serial killer ladies dressed as eunuchs))) Hope no one in palace makes unofficial history records by using THAT in their notes or future generations will have a very warped impression of his persona^^

horndog.....LOL!

The letter and curses are nothing but fake, but you know how easily they can become a reality, a reality no one will deny unless you do not want to face the truth. It doesn't matter if it is fake or not.
And yes, we will treat it seriously if Seong-on acts like the letter said, not because it is a fake letter, but because we know it is fake. Seong-on and Hwan do not know that it is fake. Even Cho Won-bo doesn't know. Nor does the King. It's very easy for that letter to become a prophecied saying, so why shouldn't we take it seriously?

I'm worried that they'd be playing the roles of cast members in the Queen's play, but we are the only ones who knows.

And if ever the truth about the letter comes out, the fact that any of them Hwan or Seong-on might have acted based on a fear of the letter might plague them once in a while.

@jerrykuvira, well, we're at the point where Queen casually murders Crown Princess right under King's and CP's noses and blames it on the curse by being all "told you so". Which is kinda unintentionally hilarious. Doesn't make it any more of a "prophecy" than magician's tricks are real miracles. Honestly I don't even know why she bothers with this betrayal thing at all if she - I assume - plans to poison Hwan into clinical madness with fish eggs within next few days? Because that's the final part of "the curse" - him loosing his marbles and becoming super easy to kill off after that. Or does she hope he'll eat them knowingly and willingly as an act of despair - OR because he's blackmailed into it? Wouldn't put THAT past her.

@gikata I do not care about the Queen or how she writes the scripts of the ghost letter. As the letter's owner, I know that she will work things to that end.
What bothers me is the words of the letter hanging around them. The words of that letter has influenced both Hwan and Seong-on in earlier episodes. And I thought we were passed that. Until Evil Queen brought it back to notice. To be fair, I saw this coming.

To the end of your paragraph, I guess she wants to tear the the crown prince piece by piece, fiber by fiber, tendon by tendon, before delivering the final blow - him losing his marbles and becoming easy to kill off.

@jerrykuvira, undoing any significant character and relationship development to delay the climax beyond any logical or structural sense is one of writer's favorite tricks here. I hate it with passion, esp in regards to main trio. They went through so much together - and for what, to regress into cliche crap that's happening right now? Ugh. Bring me back my pitch perfect Ep13 pls!

Yep, that's exactly what Queen is doing. As I said below - sadistic psycho she is. Hwan is way too polite to give her an adequate response for all that - how about Jaeyi delivering a good catfight beating to avenge both her family AND her darling?

Exactly. None of them were surprised with his unhappiness over big reveal, like people claim, neither they tried to deny or undervalue their mistakes. Thing is, Sung On did NOT get angry at them for what they did (lying to him), he got angry for what they either didn't do (having an actual affair behind his back) or couldn't control (falling for each other). While I can recall at least one case when Sung On was guilty as hell - also of deceit by silence, how ironic! - but never truly owned up to his mistake nor apologized... He's not bad, but quite a one-street way guy who thinks everything, including human relationship, should benefit him first and foremost, and when it doesn't, someone else is clearly in the wrong here, but never him. Hwan made a huge leap of faith to trust and forgive him just because they ARE friends once, how about returning the favor now?

Seriously 😑. I'm not surprised though. It is funny how you are looking at this through the modern eye when you are watching a Saguek. There are Joseon laws. And the things you're saying are anachronistic in nature.

Seong-on telling Jae-yi to leave the palace? Jae-yi's life is in danger already. Cho Won-bo ✅ The Queen ✅ And now, a murder charge✅✅. Was he still wrong to ask that she left the palace. Even though his emotions were at play there, do you think she didn't need protection? You can go on and on about how she's not to be objectified and she deserves an agency but the truth is, she is a human whose life is in imminent danger and needs all the shield she can get. The same reasons Hwan told Tae-gang to leave the palace is the very reason Seong-on wants her out of the palace. Not to force her to marry him, or to his bed. And, Hwan cannot give her that protection. He is the crown prince but he has his limits. Hwan would have to delegate protecting her to someone else. But I guess you'll feel better if the ask comes from Hwan and not Seong-on.

Hwan never underestimated her? I guess you've forgotten about the prickly way he interacted with Jae-yi during the first half of OBY.

Hwan's progressive outlook? Don't start please. It isn't progressive when he expects his childhood friend, colleague and likely political ally to get in line while he dips his fingers into his eye. If Hwan cares a bit for his friend, he should do what is right. And please, don't make it like Seong-on asked him to bundle Jae-yi and bring her to his bed.

Seong-on bringing up the marriage letter? Did the letter not exist? It did. Has Jae-yi's mind changed? Yes. Does her mind changing render the letter null and void? Not exactly. Why? Jae-yi's family is the one who sent the approval letter to Seong-on's family. Jae-yi, Hwan and Seong-on knows that. Was he wrong to bring it up to Hwan. Did that make Seong-on non-progressive? No. He's reminding Hwan on how he's being a bad friend. It wasn't Hwan's truth to tell, but he's ruining years of friendship in the process. If this was a loyalty test, Hwan failed woefully. I hope he does not expect same from Seong-on cause he does not earn his keep.

I just wished this came up sooner so he wouldn't be pining for Jae-yi. She's definitely not the right person for him. And he deserves way better. And I hate it when dramas drives a wedge between friends because of a romance. It is toxic, and ruins the other friend who becomes a third wheel.

@jerrykuvira: Sung On could have successfully given all of those arguments to Hwan and come out like a winner. He possibly can give her better protection. But he won't give her agency, and that's what this is about. This is what Hwan is objecting to, and rightfully so.

He might not have known it was Jay Yi, but he got to know as Sun Dol very very well. Her acumen, her strength, her extraordinary mind, her determination - he had over a day to think this through, and yet he chose to ignore all of it.

Of course Hwan was prickly. He still is. He cusses her more than he has cussed anyone in life (rude bastard, idiot....but then isn't that something actual friends do?) he was prickly but was fair. he never gendered her, unless it was truly needed (not having her walk to his palace at night - a respect he instictive bestowed on her).

Honestly this is how I see it - if it was Hwan's woman jumping off the cliff, Hwan would not be sitting by the desk looking at the paper hoping 'maiden please be alive'. He would ask for leave and dive into the water and cave himself to find her.

Like now where he is ready to give up the throne for her (most likely).

@minniegupta1, diving from the cliff to prove your love is so last year! Plus, to Sung On's credit, he already did that for eunuch Go, tho romantic love was not his motivation back then... How about going for an ultimate husband material test - asking both men to choose between saving Jaeyi and obeying their daddies who demand from the sons not to?

Respecting Jae-yi's will is something I think Sung-on will eventually do, once he manages to have a proper conversation with her. That's difficult when she has deliberately avoided revealing her identity and having a sensible conversation that isn't built on lies. The library confrontation- expecting him to come up with a perfect argument without resorting to demanding his chattel back is also a big ask when he's still reeling from having the rug pulled from under him and finding the CP is actually his love rival rather than conducting an illicit relationship with a eunuch!

He may be asking for her to be formally sent to him so he can have the important conversation and actually understand WTF has been going on between the other two, instead of being left in the dark and forced to guess. I also don't see him as some Victorian villain with twirling moustaches who will keep her against her will. He is far more likely to let her go without a fuss once he understands what they want. And on that score, what exactly do they want? They haven't even talked about it.

Nevertheless, she IS a chattel, whether our modern sensibilities like it or not. All women of that era were, everywhere in the world. It seems pretty ludicrous to me to complain about this, and looking at it through the modern prism of emancipated women ignores the fact that life just wasn't like that. Even the Queen is subservient to the men in her life. Sure she does as she pleases behind their backs but doesn't expect them to treat her any differently than the conventions of the time.

Comparing our two male leads here also makes no sense. One eventually got used to her, having spent weeks/months in her company when he felt unable to trust anyone else, the other never got the chance. Once the fantasy playtime of pretending to be a eunuch is over, even Hwan won't be treating her any differently from other women, because he won't be able to - not unless something drastic goes down to change things.

@KAaddict: I agree with a lot of points here. My beef is Sung On is on him being blind to Jay Yi's capabilities, not the fact that he was lied to and feels betrayed. I wish he had railed at Hwan for lying to him, about his feelings of betrayal, of being left out.

As for Jay yi being a chattel, yes, true, but that is the underlying theme of this story - her finding agency within the absolute pitiful state of women in that era.

However, showing the Queen as the actual mastermind underscores the point how powerful a woman of position truly could be even in that era.

Her plan was perfect. Drive current crown price crazy, helpless, and chase him out of the palace raving mad, take the king down at the right opportunity, enthrone her son with the help of Jo clan, and then take the Jo clan out one by one until they were finished.

What she did not see coming was Hwan's fortitude against all odds, and Jay Yi's escape and teaming up with Hwan.

Hence, Jay Yi's rise to a position of power could signal a lot of changes, which might or might not last but nevertheless open up more opportunities for women during the time period (which I am sure, happened at some point even in the Josean era. Progressive men have been known to exist all through history who helped women chip away at patriarchy in a very slow but steady race all around the world until we reached various stages of freedom in the modern era ).

In fact I truly hope Sung On gets treated to one of her "You bastard, I won't hold back" volleys lol (not addressed to him of course, but hopefully some of the kidnappers who dare to kidnap her).

I will stick my neck out and say Sung-on is going to show us just what he's made of next week. I totally distrust the writer to do this properly, still I believe an attempt will be made, if only because there's no time for anything but him voluntarily walking away, unless he dies a heroic death which would be a cop out.

Neither Jae-yi nor the Queen can act openly, they are both plotting and running around under cover (the only independence they have is fake) so I don't buy that the Queen has any "agency" at all, she doesn't. She's no better than a terrorist enabled by her position and her position was achieved via marriage. Her master plan has the end goal of putting a different man on the throne and her son won't listen to her forever.

I still think it extraordinarily unfair to Sung-on to concoct arguments he should
have made, when we have had the benefit of watching how the CP has gradually fallen into an unconventional relationship with Jae-yi that has not been without its ups and downs. There has been some pretty high-handed and autocratic behaviour towards her on his part but he seems to have been given a free pass, while the man who has not had the benefit of knowing her at all is criticised for his attitude immediately after finding out who Eunuch Go actually is. Does anyone remember Hwan's attitude?

I also think it irrelevant to say he ought to have recognised how capable she was as Eunuch Go - how does that even matter? She isn't Eunuch Go, she is just pretending and cannot run around behaving like that dressed as a woman however capable she is (just as the Queen can't).

I think both Sung-on and Hwan are realists, even though Hwan is clinging to the fantasy landscape just that bit longer. He could accept Jae-yi's independence and outspokenness when they were the only two inhabiting that secret reality because it didn't include societal rules and other people's opinions. That is the only way it could exist and it is stretching credulity too far to insist on how understanding and progressive Hwan is and how he gave her "agency" when nobody even knew and there could be no consequences!

Let's put her behind closed doors with Sung-on for months and see what he's willing to acclimatise to when no-one else is within earshot or knows what they are talking about and doing. I'm sure he'd adapt just as easily in similar circumstances when the world doesn't intrude into their private space.

Once Hwan and Jae-yi are dragged back into the real world of laws, contracts and strict hierarchy their play acting will have to come to an end unless Hwan finds some way of overturning history in the blink of an eye. At any rate, I firmly believe Sung-on will fall on his romantic sword when he finally understands why she won't come back to him no matter what. He has not been given the opportunity to discuss anything with her but when he does, sensible man that he is, he will accept it. She has put him in an...

.... unenviable position by her refusal to come clean to him and reveal who she actually is. That is not his fault, it's hers, and for that I'd be making her carry a bucket of water in each hand while running up and down the polo field in the noonday sun. She's capable and the arms can handle it .... 😄😄😎😎😄😄

Didn't he say he doesn't want to know when she was about to confess why she's rejecting him? I'm pretty sure he did that because he already guessed the answer, but there's certainly a bit of contradiction here then.

It's based on books?

@kurama, yes, it's loosely and unofficially (there was quite a drama about that, more info under script reading news article here) based on famous chinese series consisting 4 novels. I didn't read it but there are translated bits on sns and from them setup, characters and many plot points are roughly the same. We're currently at book 4 events, so nothing to squeeze a sequel from anymore.

Ah yeah, I forgot about the fact it was based on a Chinese novel.

darned*

I feel like this is exactly the reason, or at least one of them. He's been surrounded by people of starkly contrasting morals all his life - his brother, teacher on one side and his notorious grandpa, to a certain extent father, all Jo clan on another - and learned early on to spot the difference. Not that he's all that saintly himself - his rage fits and jerk mode in particular are not unlike his father's, even if for usually different reasons. Plus family tradition to take inappropriate male interest in a woman serving him... Bet the fact haunts him at his insomniac nights quite a lot. Such an embarrassment after years of believing he's totally above it)))

We don't see him enough for me. We don't know what he's thinking, his goal, his agenda, etc.

@kurama, yeah, if only we had 18 hour-long episodes to do just that...

The fact that they have not shared the curse even with shield team shows how much he still fears the fall out from it. That Jay yi was his only ray of hope (so poignantly potrayed in his anguish when he sat all night fearing Jay Yi had betrayed him) has been a driving factor behind his early reluctance to part with her when he mistrusted everyone, especially SO. He started speaking about sending her back to SO the moment he gained enough confidence to start trusting, and he realized his feelings were spinning out of control and she wasn't truly safe with him as a woman he had fallen for.

If King refuses to depose Hwan, then she eliminates him, and then deposes Hwan herself as a regent as the court officials are fully behind her at that point.

She does not know Hwan is onto her game, and so is Left Minister, and with Myung jin in the fold with Chief state minister, a lot of cards will open quickly, and they have the power of the army behind them to protect the Crown Prince.

My guess is Sung On will come on board very quickly. He might be upset and miffed, but it's possible the ghost letter will come into play as well.

If they do it right, it's going to be an epic finale.

@minniegupta1, she seems prepared to be caught by Hwan - or thinks she is at least, she said so word by word. So you're right, she might attack him any moment. Not sure it'll go as smooth as she hopes tho - does she know what King did behind her back? It would be interesting if she does and we'll get the showdown between them.

Yeah, someone better to enlighten the guy how he was played - and why. Still can't believe he bought Queen's fakest ever concerned mom act, writer really has no restrain when it comes to making characters momentarily dumb for plot convenience.

We should've gotten this good answer a few episodes ago already - I mean, knowing culprit's identity and motive doesn't automatically mean they'll be caught right away so the reveal certainly wouldn't hurt the plot progression that badly... We'd still have Queen's dirty secret as a main mystery to solve.

Agree to that. The whole opium thing could have been dealt with as well. Why would Queen send something so incriminating to Jay Yi's family when they were planning to kill them anyway? Or maybe the killing plan came later - they might have been thinking of using Jay Yi as someone who would come and talk about the cursed letter to all, making it a public knowledge, and then suddenly they found out Jay Yi's father was onto them so they needed to be killed asap?

Did they know it was Jaeyi being the detective mentioned in letter and not her brother? Probably not. And Jaeyi's cross-dressing habit - illegal and immoral at the time - was never mentioned publicly either during the smear campaign despite being a great argument to support her bad image. So she was likely targeted and framed simply for surviving against the plan. Initially it was 99% the adopted bro expected to take the fall - maybe even with the same "murder because of forbidden passion" narrative. Idk where the letter fits here tho...

During the time when Hwan starts discussing the case with Jay Yi, he tells her that there is a mention in the report from the servants that she used to cross dress to go meet her lover.

But that was not followed up or stressed upon much, and the seargent never got to see it becasue Hwan had taken the case under him.

In the first episode, while practicing archery before the hunt, Hwan mentions that now that his master's family is dead, there would be more rumors about the ghost cursing him. The end goal might have been that, until someone suddently realized that Jay Yi's father was onto something and had dispatched a secret letter, so killed the family right away. That could be the reason why Shim Young, being recently hypnotised, still had his hair black (though why did he exchange the bracelet - could it be that he truly was in love with her but never could tell her? Plausible). He was also searching for something frantically before he died, so could be that he was hunting for the letter?

Killing whole families just to validate rumors about curse seems pretty excessive - at least killing Crown Princess rn makes sense politically, since once the wedding happened, whether girl's dead or alive, Hwan would already be tied by law to Han clan and thus have legitimate basis to seek their support if needed. So anyone who wanted to prevent Hwan gaining strong allies had to act fast. Mins, on the contrary, were never meant to become this directly related to Hwan, plus they were certainly not a huge clan to begin with. It does kinda make sense with indirect connection chain tho - CP's teacher becoming in-laws with CP's best friend's family and THEN, possibly, one of Han girls becoming Crown Princess, tying all 3 families together. Yes, it took 3/4 of drama for King to think about such plan, but can we surely say Queen didn't predict it first?

Maybe he was searching for a bracelet to get rid of it, it's a proof after all. White hair thing doesn't seem to kick right away, few days passed in Grand Prince's case. Or maybe bro was hypnotized more than once - first to poison a soup, then to frame Jaeyi and then to kill himself.

Lately Hyung Sik's pieces have been rushed to no end - Soundtrack #1 (I loved it) but that one chaste kiss at the end was such a downer.

Same with Happiness - after all that build up, and ended with that friendly 'I got you pal' kiss and that's about it....

At least they had all the physical bonding moments. I am so hoping this one is an exception, else I am beginning to believe PHS is coming in with a 'No touch' policy with his femae co stars lol!

@minniegupta1, agree with Soundtrack but Happiness had FANTASTIC buildup of OTP's romance from beginning to an end, it felt so perfectly right to have The Big Damn Kiss happen exactly then and there instead of few episodes earlier. Even lack of heat fit the situation and general vibe of their relationship at that stage, it was pretty much their wedding kiss (complete with vows prior to it). None was in the mood for sexy makeout at the moment for variety of reasons, and I don't blame them))) I certainly wouldn't mind a scene of them changing beds' arrangement in the epilogue, but ok, hair kissing back hug (that sent smarty kiddo running away asap to give adults some privacy lol) was nice too. Esp if you remember that he used to never fully return her hugs for 11 episodes... And yes, it was 11 episodes of chastity, not 18-19! Idk what went wrong with Soundtrack which was a pure romance...

I don't have any hopes for scorching chemistry in his next project, so boy is better to deliver a good kiss here. He and So Nee certainly can do it.