A terrific, incisive, scathing commentary on life in surveillance in China, a must-read for all those of us who have normalised the idea of state-sponsored surveillance through dramas (and in real life, including in my part of the world). This article bears particular relevance because it is written by a (now outcast) constitutional scholar in the country, a former law professor at Tsinghua University. I also highly recommend his other essays, available in translation, linked in the brief bio at the top of this article: http://chinaheritage.net/journal/cyclopes-on-my-doorstep-by-xu-zhangrun/
I think China is interesting for a lot of reasons. Even just 15 years ago, it was commonplace for people to talk about how economic growth and prosperity would inevitably — as if by some natural law akin to gravity — lead to democratization and liberalization in China. These days, it increasingly looks like China is disturbing some assumptions that have become widespread and almost reflexive among people in my part of the world. What if economic development is not systematically related with the promotion of civil liberties and other human rights? What if a repressive government could better promote the prosperity of a nation? What would people choose then? I think that’s the question China poses in this century. (It’s worth noting that, although people in China navigate panopticon-like surveillance, must be assiduously avoid political controversy, etc., I think the average person living in a place like Beijin or Shenzhen is probably pretty happy with his or her life.)
Fantastic insights as ever, Maq! I agree with everything you said. And this is precisely the Great China Experiment, right? Everyone else who tried to set up non-democratic systems has failed. It’s almost as though the Chinese want to defiantly prove that it is not impossible to succeed with this. I sense an egotistic streak (or a streak of pride, if you prefer) there too.
I also agree that the average person in China is probably happy and satisfied, and the dissent is coming from very few corners, and obviously not loud or powerful enough. What will truly be interesting though, is what happens after the Xi era ends (especially since serious contenders like Bo Xilai etc – well entrenched within the system – have been silenced a while ago). Does the CCP have its alternatives in place? Or is there a Plan B for a leaderless China? (The same question holds for Putin’s Russia too, btw – being an equally intriguing political experiment).
Personally, I think systemic stability is still not truly guaranteed, precisely because it is so heavily dependent on the individual who is at the top. (If the CCP appeared to have a system of ensuring that the leadership chain remains healthy and unbroken, I would have made a different argument.) So even though there’s a (temporary) semblance of peace and permanence, collapse remains both possible and probable.
Thanks for this link @pickledragon. What a powerful essay written so eloquently. But it was the photo of the cameras at the bottom of the page that really threw me. wow.
Of course, the outposts are a different story – the Uighurs, the Tibetans (the latter hitting much closer home for us), Hong Kong, Taiwan… Mainland Chinese appear ensconced in their happy bubble.
I wonder about this, too. There are some people who think the CCP is deeply divided and/or unstable (Yascha Mounk recently had somebody on his podcast who has been a commentator on China for a very long time and who thinks China’s amazing economic and social achievements in conceal a rotting set of political institutions). Surely you’re right that Chinese system’s dependence on powerful leaders creates institutional risks. I know of at least two. The first is what Francis Fukuyama calls “the bad emperor problem”. In a system with fairly sweeping and centralized power in a single figure or institution and in which there is very little in the way of formal checks and balances, there is tremendous upside because there is little institutional restraint hindering beneficial government action (my favourite example of this is high-speed rail: California started the process of building HSR in 1996 and the first phase of construction is expected in 2033, whereas China started building in 2007 and already has an extensive HSR network which is – according to Wikipedia – the most extensive in the world), but the downside is also huge because bad leadership can do what it wants to do without there being a bulwark to protect against abuse. The second problem is compounded by the first and is the one you astutely note, namely the difficulties inherent in securing a peaceful and stable transition between leaders. On the one hand, the need to have a clear line of succession and a crop of good forthcoming leaders is essential precisely because of the so-called “bad emperor problem”. On the other hand, existence of competent leaders who have the necessary legitimacy to smoothly come into power when its their “turn” are a threat to any incumbent leader. It’s not surprising that, historically, similar systems of government suffered immensely when there were transitions. (Muslim Mongol rulers, who had fairly absolutist systems of government, used to routinely have civil wars after one khan would die in order to determine who would succeed the now dead khan; it severely weakened those khanates and often resulted in those Mongol khanates splintering. Similarly, the Ottoman sultans came up with the rather horrific institution known as the “Kafes” or, in English, “the Cage”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafes.)
That was very interesting. I didn’t know of the term Kafes, but the history of the Mughal empire is similar, I think. And I would imagine most imperial successions in many parts of the world (certainly in South Asia) were determined this way. That said, merely because leadership transitions have been violent historically does not justify instability in contemporary times. It surprises me as to how and why the rest of the politburo is fine with the present arrangement and whatever impending chaos is to inevitably follow.
As a follow up to the original link, I read this – slightly older but still relevant – excellent essay by the same commentator, which I thought was a great lesson in modern Chinese politics (as the non-communist world understands it, but from a Chinese perspective) with appropriate historical context. You might appreciate it as well: http://chinaheritage.net/journal/imminent-fears-immediate-hopes-a-beijing-jeremiad/
I’ve never formally studied political science or history (the latter as a minor at university only and I was always very poor at it), so my own analyses are usually very elementary and unsophisticated. So your inserts on all this are really fascinating and more importantly, thought-provoking. Thank you! 😊 🙏
Thanks for the link! I’ll have a look at this essay on the weekend (drowning in legal files T_T).
I haven’t studied political science or history formally either, although as teenager I was dead-set on becoming a historian or a high school history teacher. I still have an interest in a lot of this stuff, although I find a lot of history is written as a parade of events without any attempt to explain anything. In fact, in university, I took a course in history once where I got the distinct impression from other history majors and from the professor that the modern study of history is resolutely opposed to abstract in favour of concrete particulars and eschews explanation in favour of hand-wavey claims about contingency, accident, etc. (Not that contingency or accident have no role in the study of human affairs. But it’s a bit of a cop-out when your account of a complex event like a war basically amounts to an account of what happened without any attempt to say why it happened, accepting as always that the study of history, politics, etc. is an inexact science and unlikely to produce the kind of certain, bulletproof explanations you get from harder science.)
True re Mughals! I use the historical examples merely as an example of the underlying mechanism which I believe creates the risk of instability and how that risk has manifested in the past. There’s no guarantee that a transition will be unstable or violent, although the risk is certainly there and may materialize (though one hopes it doesn’t).
As someone who is a big votary of including pop culture in the study of more conventional disciplines, this paper is right up my alley. It might also interest those who are studying, or teaching, or know people who study or teach, economics: “Diversifying the Use of Pop Culture in the Classroom: Using K-pop to Teach Principles of Economics” available here: https://privpapers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3732471
For those of you who haven’t signed up for this, please watch Hikaru no Go (the live action cdrama adaptation of the manga / anime). A coming-of-age story about a young boy who is possessed by the spirit of an ancient Go master, and emerges a prodigy at the end of it, while learning about life, loss, belonging, friendship. It’s a show with so much heart, with an ensemble cast that is deserving of many accolades.
(this is my nth plug for this show, so for those who’ve been subject to my raving already, my apologies in advance!! i just want more people to love this show)
If you do watch it, Maq, I’d love to know what you think!
The live action version has been adapted to the Chinese context. There are some political references at the start (in the first ep) that can be deemed controversial, but if you let all of that go, I thought it was a lovely show.
This show grabbed me in the first 5 minutes of the first episode, which I’d say is terrific for an opening. Plus the fact that I did not fast-forward at all through all 36 episodes.
Aw shame! Hopefully this will wrap things up for you! I am tempted to read the manga myself now that I have watched the show.
Be warned though that the reviews suggest that the middle parts of the drama may be a little extra, although overall, I understand, it remains faithful to the original story.
Hmmm, I had a hard time with it. It had the same kinds of problems that I had with Pinocchio — super under-developed and flat female lead + a male lead I disliked (despite the heroic efforts of NJH). IDK if it’s just me though.
The women in the drama were all shortchanged. I agree. But it was a pleasant drama, I thought. No major noble idiocy. There was some kind of a story. It was a light watch. Nothing to rack your brains about. Hence, that it’s a good gateway drama – to understand what kdramas are about. It is NOT on my top 10 ever list or any such thing. 😀
I think it was a reasonably fun drama if you could put aside things that annoyed you about some of the characters. I think I just couldn’t get over how flat Dal-mi was, how cartoonish In-jae was portrayed throughout most of the drama, how under-motivated the romance was, and (perhaps most importantly LOL) how I couldn’t help but feel that Ji-pyeong should’ve been the main male lead in this drama (although, by the end, his weird tug-of-war with Do-san over Dal-mi was getting on my nerves, perhaps because I couldn’t understand why both of them were so attached to Dal-mi). I think the humour was pretty good at various points, I liked Chul-san and Sa-ha, and I think the acting was overall really top quality (Suzy excepted), but it just lost a lot its initial sparkle with me by the fifth week.
That third episode is now in my books as the best comic episode in kdramas to beat. I kept waiting for the show to repeat that magic, and you’re right, it never did. I’m picking at this show far less than I picked, say, at 18 Again. (And I don’t know why!!)
I must add that I didn’t get tired of the drama the way I got tired of, say, Brahms, or Oh My Baby, or IOTNBO. None of these are comparable genre-wise, but I found that the initial magic of all those dramas wore off very very quickly.
To clarify, Startup is not a show I’d rewatch (except for ep 3) 😀
Interestingly, I found 18 Again a very light and easy watch, whereas I found this one frustrating in the second half. Not sure why. I think it’s because 18 Again was a light watch in my mind from the outset and didn’t create unrealistic expectations for me. Start-up, on the other hand, had a very solid first two weeks, and, although in retrospect many of the problems with the show were already apparent then, I think I expected the show would simply improve as it went along. But it didn’t. Sigh.
I haven’t watched Oh My Baby, so I can’t comment on that one. But I’ve noticed that there were several dramas this year which had strong beginnings but which petered out in the second half. Brahms definitely goes into that pile, as does IOTNBO (albeit to a lesser extent; Brahms managed to pull off something really special in the way it completely soured all the initial enjoyment I got from the main couple). Flower of Evil goes in this camp as well; so does Dinner Mates (although I will say that Dinner Mates still remained reasonably enjoyable for me throughout its run and I enjoyed Lee Ji-hoon’s performance immensely in the second half).
I’m yet to watch the last 4 eps of 18 Again, but I would classify that as a candidate for a good gateway drama too (for those willing to suspend disbelief about the age-change etc).
I watched the first episode of Flower of Evil somewhere half way through its run, and decided I would wait for the final verdict from y’all here on DB before attempting to finish it. I’m glad I didn’t.
I had forgotten about Dinner Mates! That one derailed for me very quickly. I wanted to wipe it out of my memory and clearly I have. I don’t even remember which episode I watched it until, but it wasn’t much. 😀
There’s a cdrama I would add to this list too – Go Ahead – it started off so well! and then just went *phut*. What the scriptwriters were smoking I don’t know. It could have been a perfectly decent found family drama, but they made it a strange quasi-incest story, with badly botched attempt to salvage it halfway. Ugh. It was a waste of a very talented ensemble cast (barring Song Weilong).
Mondrian, Klee, something, I think it is a parallel to Bauhaus maybe? an art factory similar to what Sandbox is to startups. Bauhaus was the original “incubator” except it invented new art concepts, color theory, composition, and how visible art should be in a home.
ok someone stop me, professional cretinism, artisan quirk…
I was thinking about the lines, and how the screen was split.
I didn’t know Mondrian’s inspiration! That is interesting. I will explore more! These are the same rice paper panels we see in kdrama homes, right?
Good comedians are hard to come by and so very precious indeed. Which is why I was delighted to see Yoo Subin being given a big plug by the leads of Startup. He was the shining star among the ducklings in Crash Landing on You, and he seems to be on track to besting that in his role here! More power to YSB!
Aww they really praised him a lot! And KSH said he wants to play Won In Jae cause the character is so sad n lonely – Kang Hanna said she didn’t even get to eat, LOL.. WIJ fighting!
Finally all caught up with the 12 available eps 18 Again. It took a 3-day sick leave break and some binge-watching-while-trying-not-to-fall-asleep-during-the-day to do this. And um, I have mixed views.
To begin with, I did not like the premise of the movie on which it is based, so I came in slightly biased (I never watched the movie, and don’t intend to). There is a lot – a LOT – of suspension of disbelief required in this show, starting with the central plot device of the “elixir of life” -induced transformation.
But let’s say I swallowed that pill and walked on, out of curiosity to discover what everyone was raving on about. I get some of it. The family dynamics are the main draw, with the epigrammatic truths that the characters periodically deliver. And yes, they’re nice.
But, the messaging felt a little trite, and the overall feel was a little… disney-ish (?). The underlying theme about what makes a happy family or reinforcing the institution of marriage or defining what it means to be a good parent… I found it a little more moralistic than I would have liked, sometimes re-emphasizing discomforting stereotypes (supermoms, for example) and too nicely gift-wrapped and tied-up-in-a-bow to be easily acceptable.
But then I think, maybe I’m being too cynical. Maybe the messaging is all deliberate. Maybe the writer/s recognised that this is a fairy tale, and as fairy tales tend to be, it’s a dark story about broken families and abandoned dreams, and the only way to mask the darkness was through this bokeh veneer.
There’s also a lot of genre whiplash I got while watching – one minute it’s a melo, the next a teen / idol romance, then an office drama, then a crazy comedy (with some otaku thrown in for flavour). I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. On the contrary, I’d say it takes great skill to marry all these genres together, but it’s definitely unsettling because I could never tell what was going to me next.
Now, even with all this, I cannot finish this note without saying that the characters are all darlings. You can’t hate anyone in this story, can you? I know Ye Ji-hoon is going to be broken hearted, and I want all four of the JBC rookies to get placed permanently, and I want the anime couple to figure their avatars out and join forces, and I want Si-woo to become a rockstar ball player, and I want Si-ah to be the fierce independent woman she’s meant to be… I’m rooting for everyone. That’s great character-writing, and excellent execution by the cast and crew all around. I cannot complain.
The cast. Oh the cast, especially, has been delightful. I don’t think there’s a single misstep in the casting. It’s a perfect ensemble any way you look at it. From the mature Lee Dohyun to the gorgeous Kim Haneul to my favourite Kim Mikyung to the JBL alumni reunion of Kimm Kyanghun and Lee Kiwoo, and the younger lot as well..
So basically, I’m confused. I’d say I kind of like the show, but kind of also don’t like it? Like the show itself, I leave it to you to figure out if you know what I mean. I’m not sure I do!
Love your thoughtful analysis! It’s funny how I actually don’t disagree with anything you said here, and yet I have absolute, utter adoration for this show. A few thoughts:
– Dajung is portrayed as 100% awesomeness (with some very minor flaws), but I don’t know if I’d call her supermom, or the idea here is the woman should be able to do everything. If anything, for the most part of her life, she was only able to do one thing – taking care of her family. It took her a while, in her 30s, to go to college, then started in terrible jobs, before she got where she is today. And her mom is living with her now to help take care of the kids (who are also grown up), so I didn’t see it as her being able to do both work and family all at once.
– This is definitely a feel-good drama, and I love it for that! Like you said, most characters here are so wholesome, with some realistic flaws, but no one is straight up evil (even the few “bad” characters like the sexist boss, Il-kwon, Yoomi; you’re very kind to Yoomi, btw lol I for one don’t think she deserves a slot as a permanent employee).
– I winced a bit at the comparison to Disney lol but, yes the morals of this story are quite straightforward. If we were to compare, I’d prefer to compare it to Pixar: simple, heartwarming story with a “teaching” message to tell, through well-done storying telling. I did love how realistic all the challenges this family faced are, and the show was so good at making me care about these characters, that I only want good things to happen to them. In real-real life, Dajung might never have gotten her break. Dajung and Daeyoung might have hurt each other too much to even consider reconciling. But by starting the show with a fantastical premise (“going back to your youthful body”). I do believe the show set itself up as a fairy tale, like you said. I don’t believe in dramas where characters are tortured needlessly and struggle without any payoff (what would I be watching for, if I root for them?) so in this case, I’m happy that the characters are getting the (very belated) chances they deserve. It probably says more about how and why I watch dramas, than the drama quality itself though 😉
Hope you’ll keep watching and sharing your thoughts with us!
Thank you for your awesomely detailed response! Pixar or Disney – so long as you get the point 😀 (haven’t watched enough Pixar to know what their oeuvre is like). Fairy tales and Disney were on my mind because I’ve had Salem Ilese’s song running on loop in my head since I heard it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjiAFcaqV70)
I think Yoomi needs the right mentoring and with a bit of help, can do well. I always feel for folks setting out in new jobs, clueless about what to do, learning life lessons along the way. I think it comes from that perspective. And as for Il-kwon, I think Lee Kiwoo has always been shortchanged in the characters he plays (the ones I’ve seen at least), so I think I feel bad for him as an actor more than for him as the character. Hehe.
And yes, totally agree that Dajung is not supermom, but I feel like the show is selling the idea of being supermom to us. As though women should be able to do everything – have the awesome job, keep the family together, manage the parents and the in-laws. It’s shown as aspirational and desirable, and I have problems with that. :/ I deeply respect women in real life who do that (including in my own family), but I am uncomfortable with encouraging this idea. It’s the same feeling I have about a lot of the (especially family-oriented) messaging and stereotypes that the show puts out and perpetuates: marriage is good; divorce is bad; look after your parents and in-laws; boys play ball; women look pretty and become TV announcers…
I’m probably being selective in calling this out here, because it is true of probably every other kdrama out there. :p So it isn’t really fair. But maybe I’m in the mood. Sorry for subjecting you to this!
I will keep watching, I think!, and will join in occasional conversations like this 😀 thank you 🙂 it’s nice to be talking about these things!
I like your reason for drama watching – I agree completely that the best dramas are those that have characters you can root for!! I think in another mind space, I might have adored this drama as much as the rest of you, but maybe I’ve been wired differently for now… My cynicism hasn’t been fixed yet :p I’m trying to work on that!
Oh! I think you’d like Nothing but Thirty then! There are a couple of divorces in there, with very different trajectories, to show the different kinds of lives and choices different women make. Again, wait till ep 15 or so before making judgment lol it all gonna go somewhere I promise!
Thanks for the great post. I feel a little less cynical disliking this drama. I kept thinking it’s me being too picky or just not the target for this kind of show but you nicely explained some of my reasons. I’ve only watched until ep 8 btw so maybe it will pick up later. I can’t say I dislike these characters but I don’t exactly like them either because I find all of them quite superficial and one note.
So many things seem either unlikely or very hard to believe. This makes some moments others consider heartwarming, a bit ridiculous, I blame my cold heart kkk
When DY had that insight about the husband drinking because he worked stupid long jobs it was so silly, she isn’t that dumb that she would not have understood that in 18 years.
The fact he became distant from the kids felt completely contrived. It’s been 8 eps and we still know almost nothing about the kids. I don’t believe for a second that his whole family would have kept a relationship with his dad but that guy would still manage to stay away from his father. Again, this doesn’t match DY or HDY personality.
I’m also disliking the fact that he made a big deal about letting the wife go her own away after the divorce but every ep there are romantic scenes with them. Divorce can be good! They are that classic example of a couple that grew apart, nothing wrong with that. Lastly I’ve been waiting for HDY to enjoy being a boy again but it’s all about fixing his family and doing what he didn’t do when he was the dad, it’s completely unrealistic, as if he would be selfish to do anything only for himself and drama must sell him as being a nice person.
Haha, I’m as cold hearted as well, I think! Thanks for calling out the things that seemed a little unrealistic. This is among several such through the show.
I also feel like there’s a drastic personality shift in Hong Dae Young as a kid and now – he didn’t seem to be the shouty kind as his (real) 18-year-old self, but he’s become this sort of person over the years. It’s possible, but I also find it anomalous and the transformation isn’t totally easy to swallow.
Aw Maq, no worries! Thank you for recommending it to me though! I’m still glad I watched it, it’s given me perspective on stuff I’m beginning to like and not like about kdramas. Also, I’m sticking with this through till the end, now that I’ve made it to 12/16!! I might yet become a full convert 🙂
(Also, we will still rave together about all the other dramas we’re on the same page on, hehe!)
Still a bit sad that I don’t get to rave over this one too =( But I get and I don’t think you’re wrong about anything you’ve said. For example, there is a Disney-ish element to this show in some ways, although I find it works for me in this and it doesn’t detract from the experience for me. Similarly, if you stare at the show, you find lots of things that are not very believable . Why did Deok-jin accept young Dae-young so easily? Why isn’t Ae-rin spooked out of her mind? Why aren’t all the people who knew Dae-young when he was younger (especially Da-jung) alarmed by the appearance of a doppelganger? Why aren’t Si-woo or Si-a alarmed by Dae-young, who seems to have forced his way into their lives as Woo-young? Etc etc. Nevertheless, this show is really working for me and it’s what I look forward to most each week.
Yes to all this!! Exactly the issues I was having 😀 I think I am nitpicking too much for this drama, because otherwise I’d have swept all my issues under the carpet and gone with the flow. Ah well. I still have to catch up with this week’s episodes! But life has been a little chaotic. Maybe I’ll finish all of them up together next week.
Recording my thoughts on Record of Youth
I stayed the course for this show to my shock and surprise. More because of convenience than anything else (instant subs – thank you Netflix; and scheduling – light watch at dinnertime on otherwise dull Mondays and Tuesdays).
I don’t think it was a great drama at all, or even a good drama at that. But at its heart, the story had something going for it. On paper it must have seemed like a great coming-of-age drama, and that explains why it attracted so many top billing actors. But the dialogue was mostly pretentious, and the execution was totally off.
Oh, and Park Bo Gum is beautiful, yes, even when he cries. I get that now. 😀 But this is not a project he’ll want to boast about in his résumé. Also, this does not change my opinion about his acting. About Park So Dam – she seems the same as she was in that awful Cinderella drama. Maybe she should stick to the movies. I was hoping Byeon Woo Seok would be more than just a pretty face, but. it might be unfair to judge him on the basis of two very average dramas (this and Flower Crew). The only actor who stood out for me was Shin Dong-mi CEO of Jjampoong, Min-jae unnie/noona. She has great comic timing, and it will be good to see more of her.
I’m not a huge fan of anybody in this cast, but it still surprised me that somebody with PBG’s star power would choose this drama. IDK. This year, all the dramas I anticipated disappointed me and all of the dramas that impressed me were dramas I had no expectations for/no clue about beforehand. That holds true for this one as well. I had expectations and was disappointed.
TBH, I waited for this drama only to see what the director was unto! (because he did this project instead of Stranger 2). Maybe he’s regretting it too 😀
Not a fan of any of the cast either. I thought the seniors were especially badly cast – all the families were so wooden. The story had a lot of a family drama vibe going for it, but I felt the casting did not do the storytelling justice.
I agree with the ‘no expectations’ dramas – Into the Ring (totally from left field), and now Startup (again, not a fan of any of the cast. Fingers tightly crossed for this one!! It’s been so good so far)
I’ve been wondering if the translations are accurate since this writer is known for her dialogue. Perhaps the Netflix translation isn’t capturing the nuance.
I liked the shorter drama First Time/Because It’s The First Time much better as a coming of age story and it also has a better character for Park So Dam. The one thing I’ve liked in RoY is the friendship between the three young men.
Ooh. I haven’t watched First Time. I will check it out.
I must admit I liked the real life touch this drama gave with PBG enlisting at the same time as his character. That was nicely done. The friendship was also nice, I agree. 🙂 But I do feel kdramas have done friendships/bromances and family relationships better than this.
Netflix subs are terrible. I know maybe 20 Korean words from my one year of watching kdramas, and even I can tell the translations are off. The only reason I like them are the “instant gratification” purpose they serve. Which means I don’t get ruined by spoilers (not that I mind much, tbh). Otherwise, I’d pick Viki over Netflix anyday. I don’t have access to Kocowa so I don’t know how that holds up against these two, but I hear it’s generally not great.
Seeking recommendations, to prevent myself from getting into a slump I don\’t want to be in:
1. Rom-com / Fluff: Into the Ring is the current gold standard. Is it too much to ask for one where both leads are smart/intelligent?
2. Dramas that have a story to tell, and tell it well. Like – a Drama, y\’know. Like a good unputdownable novel. They need not be rom-coms. E.g., My Mister, Misaeng, or, of course, FoS1/2.Language no bar. K/C/TW dramas are all considered! Thank you muchlots in advance.
I (kinda) live watched SOOD. Even though I’m not a fan of the genre, it was excellent all around! Actually, I might do a rewatch sometime. You’ve given me an idea 🙂
Your standards are high and unfortunately there aren’t many great shows 😅
Still if language is not an issue then I can recommend you dramas I liked a little less than the ones you have written but are still good:
Jdrama: If talking paid (slice of life/family)
Cdrama: Twenty your Life on (coming of age/slice of life)
(cdramas I didn’t watch but maybe upto your liking “The Bad Kids” and “Nothing but Thirty”.
Tdrama: Someday or One day (telling the genre might just spoil it for you)
Thanks wapz! I agree about the standards – I think they’re universally approved, no? (at least on DB :D). Ordinarily I’d have been happy with something less good, but I worry that I’ll totally slump if I don’t get to watch something really compelling.
I loved Bad Kids!!! Actually, The Long Night is on my list – I’d forgotten about it. Will pull it up.
This reminds me – another cdrama I want to watch is Crossfire, but the last time I checked on YT, the official subs were not up. *sigh* I might have to watch elsewhere…
I tried Twenty your life on, based on one of your posts only, I think! But it didn’t quite click :/ I’m yet to watch Nothing but Thirty, but if it’s anything like The First Half of My Life, I don’t think I want to watch (I hate-watched that show, and couldn’t finish it).
I’ve watched Someday and thought it was excellent (despite the genre :p)!
Haven’t yet watched a jdrama I loved – there’s something stylistically different about jdramas that I haven’t quite wrapped my head around. I will give this a try!
Haha yeah these shows are so good and so rare to come by.
J dramas are stylistically quirky and episodic which is why it’s harder for me to make them regular. Otherwise I think they do the best slice of life in this region. If talking paid is similar too but it may not be everyone’s cup of tea.
Can you tell me why you didn’t like TYLO? Because it feels like I’m the anomaly 😅 I know people liked it and I particularly did because I saw myself in the girls, it was very real for me and first and foremost about the girls then any other man so it appealed to me. But it doesn’t seem like many beanies liked it and I’m suspecting my tastes are indeed changing hah.
I also heard that “A Murderous affair in Horizon tower” was good so you can give it a try. The kdrama based on the jdrama, Dangerous wife seems to be getting good reviews too. I’ll check it today (I didn’t like the original but I’m hearing the k version is different).
But basically a good show will inevitably get you in a slump once it ends if nothing is equally good around. I’d say relax to watch some k variety shows instead. It’s a whole new world and more entertaining.
Y’know this has been on my list forever! Viki has it, and I have been told it’s a very different LSK from what we’re used to seeing, so I should get to it. 😀
I forgot about this thread :/ My bad. Sorry for the late reply!
I can’t remember now why I didn’t like TYLO. Maybe I couldn’t connect with any of the characters? I agree that the really good thing about the show was that it was about the girls and not about the boys. Considering that drama viewers are probably 99% female, it is a good sign that they’re making shows that talk about women alone, and their lives, without focusing on the men. I guess other than this factor, the show didn’t stand out from any of the similar dramas about a group of female friends?
Before Murderous Affair, I plan to watch The Long Night. I’m bracing myself for heartbreak, though, of which there is plenty in that, I am told.
And y’know, I actually haven’t seriously watched a k-variety show. If you had to recommend one which is subbed and easily available in English, what would you suggest? I’ve watched bits of Running Man, and clips of 2N1D, and find both of them, um, ok. Variety is not really my thing, but I’m open to discovering something new. I like travel shows a lot, and was wondering if one of the k-variety / travel shows are good?
Variety looks very weird in the beginning but it grows strongly on you eventually. I remember watching one epusode of Running Man and thinking why on earth does everyone praise it but actually it was just stylistically very different from sth I’ve ever seen and it took me a few episodes to understand everyone’s character and love their intercations. So while I would always recommend Running Man, it will be better to start from a show that is easier to understand. And for that, you can check out the recently ended Sixth sense. It’s only 8 episodes long but it so fun because the girls are a riot. Though for travel variety there are always the Na PD shows (one other thing in variety is that producers have a very big affect on the sytlistic sense of their shows that one can easily tell what show belongs to which PD), i. e. The over flowers shows (grandpa over flowers, youth over flowers, noona over flowers), new journey to the west and three meals a day. The best way to start variety is to watch an episode where one of the celebs you want to watch comes in as a guest or regular cast member. For instance I’ll definitely recommend Youth over Flowers Laos for the reply 1994 cast (Yoo Yeon Seok, Baro and Sohn ho jun) but among my favorites in Yof’s was YOF Iceland with (Jo jung Suk, Kang Han Neul, Jung Woo). Likewise if you want to see a specific celebrity being a guest, you can pick that Running Man or Knowing bros episode. I’m not a regular watcher too, I just pick any epusode if I hear it’s really good but it’s a good breather and great for relaxing.
@wapz – this list of recommendations and your strategy for watching/picking episodes is fantastic. I hadn’t thought of it that way – i.e., watch episodes for a celebrity (maybe because I don’t really fangirl on anyone majorly… sigh.. I wish I did). This makes so much sense. The “Over Flowers” series are what I have heard the most about too. I will also look for the others you have mentioned. Thank you so very much!
I have not watched The first half of my life, but having read reviews of it, I’m rather confident that Nothing but Thirty is nothing like it 🙂 It’s a slow burn though – I kept watching somewhat indifferently until episode 15 or so (I guess the fact I didn’t drop it was already a pretty good sign!), and then suddenly realized I cared so much about all the characters, and all the previous slowly built plot points converged and the show kinda picked up from there. So hang tight!
If you haven’t seen it already, Story of Minglan is my absolute favorite cdrama (also give it 15 episodes please lol) Both leads are intelligent, and white it’s not a Drama the way My mister is, it’s not a romcom either. Really fun and moving story about family 🙂
Ah I think Story of Minglan is a costume drama, right? I have minor costume drama allergy – Joy of Life is something I’m slowly watching, as an exception to that. Maybe I’ll get to Minglan after!! (I still haven’t watched Untamed, for ex.)
That’s an attractive description for Nothing But Thirty! I might pick that up soon. Thank you for the recommendation!
Ah yes but it’s not costume drama in the same way that JoL is, meaning, it feels more like a historical drama that focuses entirely on a family rather than a dynasty. JoL is more…fantastical I’d say. The period setup is to provide the central conflict: being a woman in a society that doesn’t give you much freedom.
A warning about Nothing but Thirty since I know you don’t care for didactic moralistic stories 😂 I do think at times it’s a bit like that, but the character development still feel very true to life, and life here being Chinese society with a lot of imposed community driven rules. I’d say it’s a story about 3 women who try to live within and/or break out of those boundaries, sometimes they fail and sometimes they succeed.
How about French series? I would definitely recommend The Bureau (Le Bureau des Legendes) a French spy thriller about daily life and mission of the intelligence officers. Unlike American spy movie, it’s complex, intelligent, realistic, empathetic and so intense without action scenes. It shows the intricacies of politics and networks around the world with superb acting, detailed writing and complex characters. It’s considered the best French Tv, on par with The Wire.
Try SBS On Demand they have all seasons and is free but it’s only available in Australia. Do you use VPN ;).
Will check out Marseille. I like French comedy, its charm, sarcasm and not to your face type.?Have you watched Call my agent? French comedy in Netfix?
I *loved* Call my Agent! It’s *such* a well made show. Definitely the best comedy I have watched. I wish more people would watch it! I try to plug it whenever I get the chance. I also thought “A Very Secret Service” was not bad, though not in the Call My Agent league.
I need to figure out a good VPN service. sigh. I think it will solve a lot of my issues.
Thanks for the SBS OnDemand tipoff. Will figure out how to access 😉
Ohhhh okie maybe some possibilities:
(I’m also tossing in some US/Canadian shows that I love at the moment!)
1. Rom-com/Fluff: Just Between Lowers (forever my fav and def worth giving it a shot if you haven’t seen it already!), Schitt’s Creek (ahh what a feel-good and cozy show~).
2. Nobody Knows (gosh this was so good!), Hyena (the leads’ chemistry is off the charts!), Barry (it gives me a lot of feels).
I *love* Just between Lovers! It’s on my all-time favorites list! Same with Nobody Knows – I thought it was an *exceptional* show, among the best of 2020. Hyena was such a riot too – thank you for the suggestions – clearly we have similar taste 😀
I haven’t watched Schitt’s Creek or Barry. I haven’t watched English-language TV in a long time now! Will check them out. Thank you 🙂
yay! wow i did not expect that our tastes are that simillar! :3
I hope you find these two shows fun! Schitt’s Creek only has 6 seasons with really great thought-out characters arcs and very easy to breeze through. Barry is a bit more intense and makes me sad half the time.
You may have already watched these but some of my favorites sans what you already listed
1. Buamdong Revenge Social Club – one of the best non-romantic yet not super serious drama. The sismance of the lead ajummas are the best!
2. Nokdu Flower – if you are ok with sageuks it’s one of the best and pulls at your heartstrings in all the right places. A story of regular people and hope
3. Mother – the best cryfest ever. Makes you think of what the term “mother” means.
4. Nobody Knows – A story of a too perfect kid and bad adults. But also a story about bunch of good adults that try to find the truth about several related crimes. A story where cops actually have teamwork lol
6. Save Me – About cults and getting out of one.
7. Save Me 2 – story is unrelated to Save Me sans a pseudoreligious cult type scenario. It has an equally compelling story with Um Tae Goo as the brash main.
8. The Guest – Exorcisms and interesting partnerships. Scary but worth the ride.
Ooh I’ve only watched #4 – Nobody Knows.
I’ve been keen on Nokdu Flower (despite my costume drama allergy), and excited that Netflix has picked it up. And I’ve read about Buamdong Revenge Social Club before on DB – I need to look that up. Someone reviewed Mother as well recently I think – I need to. brace myself for a tearfest before watching it.
I’m not sure about 6-8, because they don’t sound like genres I might enjoy. But I’ll give them a shot since you recommend! Thank you!!
If it helps convince you more, Save Me 1 has Woo Dohwan (it’s his break out and maybe debut work) and Seo YeJi (it’s one of her earlier works) and Taecyeon (he’s the main but Woo Dohwan steals the show)
And a smile to end it all!
“I’m in hell” was reminiscent of Faustus, Mephistopheles, and that Lost Paradise.
The whole story in one killer line.
Slow clap.
Thank you for the ride, Team FOS2.
Here\’s an excellent piece about the evolution of kpop groups over the past ~30 years, mainly about size and changing relevance of roles of different members of the groups: https://pudding.cool/2020/10/kpop/
It helped me understand the maze that is kpop better. I also really appreciated the analogy with football (soccer) to explain kpop \”teams\” and fandom. Oh, and super dataviz, which is something that *always* excites me!
Nice article. Maybe the analogy with soccer is misleading though? Every soccer player has a role, which is strategic and all about playing the sport, they are needed for the team to play. These groups can have anything from 3 to 30 people. No soccer player is cast because he is pretty or charming, no externals factors matter. None of them gets cast because the process of casting itself became a lucrative game.
Agreed about the sporting factor in football, and how strategy has a role to play in sport which a pop group cannot replicate. I won’t defend the analogy unnecessarily, but if one had to do so, one could argue that topping the charts is the equivalent of the championship; and that “visuals” are an intrinsic factor in kpop teambuilding, just as finding the right midfielder would be in football. The analogy also helped explain – to me – fandoms, and how team support evolves. Also, casting may have become a lucrative game in the construction of teams in sporting leagues as well (not so much in building national teams)?
Yes, professional sport is sometimes as terrible as kpop industry. When I talked about a soccer team it was more about the concept of the game and not about the complicated schemes created by indusytry only to make money from the sport and the fans. Why should a music group need some member just to be pretty or charming? When did they start selling beauty and personality traits as something of equal value ? These groups became disposable objects, the music is just another element of the equation instead of the reason of their existence.
True. It’s really no longer about the music. Just like sport is no longer about the sport. 🙁 As someone who used to watch all kinds of sport (except golf and motor-racing) throughout her teens, by when the idea of “pure sport” was already vanishing, this is especially telling.
There had better be a Season 3 for FOS. And while I hope the crew stays intact, I sure hope they KEEP THE EDITOR! I don\’t study film but Ep 15 was a masterclass in editing.
Cho Seung-Woo said he can do 5 seasons which would be terrific. HSM together with HYJ are now the heart and soul of this series – can’t imagine FoS without them.
Of course, that the HSM and HYJ partnership should stay goes without saying! I didn’t mention my hope that the cast remains as is for obvious reasons. I’m secretly wishing they’ve actually started making S3 😀
I sort of want them to let it go after this. Two excellent seasons is good enough. I say leave it at that — leave it while they’re ahead! — and let the writer do something else, something that is different but equally amazing.
That is tempting also. But Lee Soo Yeon is such a fine writer, and I feel she’s got under the skin of these characters completely – she owns them – she has to give us more. I’m just greedy.
*covers face*
Yes to all!
I really need another season! I was ready to like this one even knowing it may not be as good as S1, but know I feel like a kid who has to answer: who do you love more mum or dad?
I know!! Me too! I was biased before this show started. I was so hyped up way long before the first air date, and was basically twiddling my thumbs during the intervening period for this to show up. I would have loved it even if it wasn’t this good (although, “less than this good” would have been fine by any other drama standards!!). It’s a bonanza that it’s turned out this brilliant. Finer than S1. Way more than we bargained for.
Both BDN and LJH said they are happy to join CSW for more seasons. FoS is the drama they love dearly and very proud to be part of it. So it’s up to the writer if she can come up with a new script and are willing to put her neck on the chopping block again.
That is the big big risk. But I trust this writer so completely. Three excellent scripts FOS 1 & 2 and Life… I can’t see her do a bad job. Or even if she does, I will take it. Because I feel this writer putting in a lesser effort will be better than most others’ best effort.
Also, only BDN and LJH? Not CSW? I thought he was the one who wanted 5 seasons in the first place. 😀 In any case, I can see a S3 with LJH taking centrestage, especially since we’ve been LJH-deprived for most of this season…
Because CSW wanted to do until season 5, they gladly join him for a ride. There is still hope for S3.
I will follow this writer to the end of the world 🙂
Second that! And I want a lawyer in season 3, a good one. The lawyers we got so far are shady and have temperament problem. Could Dong-jae return as a lawyer to join force with Shi-mok and Yeo-jin pleaseeee?
Count me in! After his conversation with Shi-mok in the last episode I do want him to work as a lawyer. Maybe ask Dong-jae to join him lol. We know Dong-jae needs some guidance to keep him in line.
I can’t see how they are going to wrap it all up in one more episode, so I’m guessing there may be some unresolved stuff (I don’t know if I can survive the stress though)
They’re planting the seeds for season 3 I guess?lol. But SF is never a series that ties the ending neatly, just like irl society there won’t be a nice idealistic closure.
My last fanwall comment asked if FOS2 Ep12 could be bettered. That was basically me telling myself to temper my expectations from the rest of the show. And then ep14 came along…. WHOA.
I didn\’t think it\’s possible, but it seems that S2 is way way better than S1!
I\’m so deeply in love with this show and everything about it. I\’m incoherent in my adoration.
my olnly qualms is that it had a very very slow start. Now that we’re at ep14, I see what they tried to do and I appreciate it, but it might have deterred a few less-patient / less-engaged audience members, and that’s unfortunate.
1. The parallels between CB-WTH and HYJ-HSM were obv. my favourite part this episode.
2. Lots of HYJ-HSM scenes to make up for the lack of, previously. Opposite-sex platonic friendship so well written! Learn, people, learn. I could watch dramas about such friendships ALL the time.
3. Hanjo ties up to main story in a big way.
4. I love love LOVE that three central characters are women, and they are never EVER shown as props for anyone or anything else. Fabulous writing.
5. That National Assembly-like debate about police vs prosecution was a lesson in writing dialectic. And the after-conversation between HYJ-HSM, which put it all into perceptive.
6. HSM SMILES! Like actually, lips upturned, reacting at the right time, in friendly banter. It was like a sigh of relief after all that tension.
Actually, I thought WTH’s line delivery was not the best – it felt like he was reading a script – unless the posturing was deliberate and in character. But yeah, overall, that back and forth was very well done!
Yes! This episode makes me smile so much, which is odd since it’s still full of tense moments. haha Gosh, I’m sad we’re at the home stretch now. We still need more SM/YJ moments!
So right about smiling amidst tension – that’s what HSM’s smile felt like – it was a ray of sunshine in a taut episode. I was very happy with the SM-YJ scenes here. Their friendship is *goals*, as they say.
Has anyone considered that all of this is a storm in a tea cup and nothing has happened at all except plotting for advantage (and the kidnapping of DJ)? This may be completely off the wall, but have you considered the possibility that there are no murders at all? That the drownings were drownings, that the suicide was a suicide, that the heart attack was a heart attack. In fact what we see is maneuvering for advantage in a fog of misdirection, and attempts by the police and prosecution to frame each other on the basis of their paranoid suspicions and attempts at outguessing each other.
The big question though is what has happened to Dong-jae? I’m starting to wonder if that vile burgeoning sociopath High School student has kidnapped him out of malevolence (but then we saw the reflection of the police watch??) On the other hand Sec Park is v suspicious. Who is he really working for?
interesting theory! not considered it. although the high school student – SDJ connection has crossed my mind, for otherwise that case/conversation was a very random insert in the earlier episode. the kidnapper is shown to be a rich person, with fancy musical instruments, etc., so rich high school brat doing the kidnapping is not impossible.
Yes, I have started to think there might not be a murderer. Possibly, an accomplice who knows something about a crime, could be bullying or drug dealing but choose to stay silent. A blinking eye symbol in the intro could mean witnessing a crime but choose to close their eyes. Unlike S1, the catchphrase is every suspect has a motive cos there was a murder. Tragedy happened because someone chose to turn a blind eye (leader Baek’s silence to the bullying of officer Song)
yeah the tagline is also something similar, right? everyone who remains silent is guilty = turning a blind eye? I usually end up ff-ing the intro – must go back and check it out!
Also, I’m still not convinced the Sergeant wasn’t murdered. Too much doesn’t add up. Right now, my theory is that the newbie at their police station might’ve been the killer — although I have no good evidence for this theory!
different character, but also agree that the suicide is still not convincing. Unless show wants to leave the cops’ transgressions as abetment to suicide (which would also be punishable).
Ikr, and it’s weird that the whole team was shown to feel regret because of the bribes. Did they not feel a tiny bit of remorse for the bullying which triggered the supposed suicide? As bad as receiving bribe is, it’s not costing you human life. I sense crooked moral compass here.
He’s been shady from the start! I agree. But no one is entirely above suspicion yet. WTH and CB are still dodgy. I don’t know what mega plan they have up their sleeve. Chairwoman Lee is also pretty scheming. Who knows. At this point, I’m not even clear on what the exact crime is. :p I’m just enjoying the complexity of the ride and the tight writing. There’s never a loose plot line with LSY, and everything is going to tie together eventually.
The one thing I don’t want is a lame attempt to pin all of this on Chairwoman Lee’s brother or father. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that the writer will not go for an easy solution like this.
For me, the most suspicious people right now are Park Sang-mu and Seo Dong-jae’s wife. The two of them seem to have secrets and ulterior motives. (Who knows, Park Sang-mu might be the father of Seo Dong-jae’s children! LMAO)
haha the fathering seems far out, although. all is definitely not rosy on the marriage front. that said, I thought it strange that the wife should put on such a show just for the sake of keeping up appearances. she’s definitely fishy, but for other reasons.
I have been theorizing that the Lee brother is behind a lot of this, and the father is definitely going to come back into the story at some point, but how and when I don’t know.
I at first thought they were dating or something. They do get along really well. However, he gives me snake vibes and I definitely think he’s involved in some sinister in whatever is going on here.
I completely agree! I mentioned elsewhere that I thought this was the best single stand-alone episode in a drama I have seen in a long long time. So much to learn from this one hour alone.
Even as Do you Like Brahms? is on almost everyone’s watchlist here on DB, one thing that has struck me is the fact that I’m using a Korean drama to learn about and appreciate Western classical music – the anomaly is not lost on me. (To be fair, though, I did also thoroughly enjoy the first season of Mozart in the Jungle, which is the other example I can think of of a drama that has western classical music as its central theme.)
Even earlier, I have wondered why some of the best contemporary exponents of the form are not necessarily – ethnically, at least, to use a politically sensitive term – from countries where the music was created: names that immediately come to mind are Yo-yo Ma, Lang Lang, Vanessa Mae. The one reason why that is the case I can think of is – migrant families seeking validation in western societies through a display of virtuosity in their music, combined with tiger parenting practices, will inevitably churn out geniuses like this. This is besides straightforward exposure to western classical music in the colonial era (which there are some fascinating examples of in Indian classical music too!). I’m sure there are more complex reasons than this, though.
Appropriately enough, along comes this article by Alex Ross in The New Yorker earlier today on the whiteness of classical music, and how that is and/or needs to change. This para stood out:
“At bottom, the entire music-education system rests upon the Schenkerian assumption that the Western tonality, with its major-minor harmony and its equal-tempered scale, is the master language. Vast tracts of the world’s music, from West African talking drums to Indonesian gamelan, fall outside that system, and African-American traditions have played in its interstices.”
Maybe it\’s me just being a fan, but the editing in FOS2 is far superior to FOS1. The transitions, especially! And this show is a good example of how and when to use flashbacks (unlike Nobody Knows).
Yup – NK didn’t need the flashbacks, but in FOS2, I feel they are actually needed, because it’s so much complex a story, with many more characters and subplots. The flashbacks are also being used with care and only when necessary. Anyway, I’m loving this show dearly, even with all its – sometimes incomprehensible – layers.
It is. I have to say that the editing and the cinematography in S1 were not up the drama, IMO. S2 is far better.
I haven’t watched Nobody knows, but planning to do it.
For @azzo1 and SNG: wishing you all the happiness in the world together. @ally-le As a Melomance fan, this is my pick! It’s not k-pop or from an OST, but I. think. the song meets your criteria 🙂
ooh looking forward to your suggestion! I’m a little obsessed with their sound, actually :p And I’d have picked an entire concert if I could (and all the songs met your criteria!) 😀
You’re right! Melomance appears in BTIOFL singing this as buskers or something: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Qd23bXmdo
(it’s a show I haven’t paid much attention to!, so I missed the reference :D)
I actually also really like the other Melomance song from BTIOFL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3OzE2w64X4
(which started me off on this k-music/ kdrama craze actually!)
I think Ally has linked to this already on her fanwall.
However intrinsically beautiful the piece is, in the minds of an Indian viewer, Schumann’s Träumerei will forever be associated with this men’s clothing fabric brand, which has the (most awfully) cheesiest of taglines, “The Complete Man”. As a result, the first two episodes of “Do you like Brahms” felt like one long PPL.
FOS2 is all about manipulation – whether it is Choi Bit and Woo Tae Ha trying to manipulate their hoobaes, or whether it’s Lee Yoon-jae manipulating the Sungmoon CEO (the opening seconds of That Scene gave me JBL feels, though), or whether it is Weasel desperately trying his hardest to manipulate anyone or anything that comes his way, or whether it’s Lee Soo-yeon – showing off her craft – manipulating the audience with that cliffhanger of an ending in ep 6.
I’m in deep here, and loving it (even if my avatar doesn’t seem to be – her sweater’s cute, though!)
It’s all about trust.
I had a very hard time watching Yeojin struggling.
I don’t like Choi Bit or WTH. They are up to nothing good although they keep speaking about the organization greater good, while they are only defending their positions.
It was heartbreaking hearing Yeojin confession that you can’t stop crime: you get one criminal and two pop out the minute after. It’s just like a gigantic Hydra of Lerna.
I hate to see our favourite couple struggling this much, both are exhausted. Where is my enthusiastic Yeojin? Even ShiMok noticed… you haven’t been drawing lately…
Hmm. I don’t dislike any of the characters yet, especially CB and WTH – they are still in the grey territory, I feel. They are in power, and also powerbrokers, and doing everything to secure their own positions and their legacy. I am seeing their manipulations in that context, which makes it all very real. But well said about Yeo-jin – she’s the manifestation of the disillusioned idealist. So is Shi-mok, of course, but he doesn’t show the emotional range that she does.
In that sense, they are *all* everyman. Whether it is in the self-preserving machinations of the bosses, or the naïveté of the hoobaes, we have all been (or will be) there at some point in our lives. The show is holding up a mirror, and asking us to decide where we want to be, for ourselves. I love it! It’s demanding so much introspection from all of us.
Exactly. When Choi Bit tells YeoJin that one day you can sit in this chair, I could totally feel how YeoJin was not motivated at all to take that seat.
She knows (as I know) that if you sit there you will have to sell many things, because even if you want when you are in a position of power (little, middle, big, it doesn’t matter) there are certain things you have to do or do not, whether you like it or not.
I know because I’ve been there. I had for some years that power (I was a team leader) and I suffered so much, because I couldn’t do for my people what I wanted, and I couldn’t be the boss I would have wanted to be. I’ve always complained about bosses looking the other side, but even if I tried hard, there were things I could not change and HAD to look the other side, and it was killing me. So the minute I was told there would be a restructuring and I would be demoted, that was one of the happiest days of my working life.
And Yeojin knows, like I know, that taking that seat would not change things, but only change her.
So well said! That scene also made me wonder what Yeo-jin’s long game actually is (and Shi-mok’s as well). Do they want to stay in this system, or are they going to be too disillusioned to want to remain in it? Like you, will Yeo-jin be happy when she goes back to her beat-cop life with her buddies?, or will she regret having lost out on the opportunity to take control and bring about the changes she knows the system needs. I’d love if the show actually answers these questions.
Because of her nature, YJ absorbs things more emotionally and personally. Constant fight of crime and corruptions is taking its toll on them. We all experience time when we feel lost and unsure about our career or life in general. The best thing about SM-YJ friendship is they are each other anchor to help them to stay true to their beliefs.
When CB said to YJ “ you have no ideas how you are dragged into thing” I really feel for her. There often times when we feel obliged to do certain things either for our company, group or even friends as we are all part of the collectivism, more so for CB in a male domination field.
So true! Where is the line between individual agency / free will, and collective / circumstantial compulsion? The CB-YJ dialogue highlights this dilemma well.
That friendship between SM and YJ is written so well, and so subtle but beautiful. I wish LSY sticks to friendships – it’s her strongest suit when it comes to writing relationships that I have seen so far
After some hard-selling by Beanies, and desperately needing more of Lee Soo-yeon (what am I going to do now?), I finally finished bingeing Life. It is definitely nothing close to LSY’s best, i.e., Stranger, and as @eazal puts it, nothing really happens in the show, it still has its charm. Some random observations from my watch follow (One or two Spoilers Alert) .
About the performances:
— exponentially upped my appreciation for the senior actors in kdramaland – Yum Hye-Ran (Secretary Kang! – gold performance), Yoo Jae-Myung (he’s done so many rubbish shows, but he’s *such* a great character actor), Lee Sang-hee, Kim Won-Hae (hope he’s recovering fast!)…
— Of the younger lot, Lee Kyu-hyung and Tae In-ho stood out.
— Of course our hero Cho Seung-Woo can do no wrong in my eyes. I’d love to see CSW in a slice of life one day, instead of his forever grim poker-faced characters.
— I still love Won Jin-ah’s voice: deep, rich, and clear. That. is her biggest strength, and I hope she uses it well. But she has yet to best her role in Just Between Lovers. This was not it. Maybe she’s a director’s actor, and needs to find the right guidance.
— Lee Dong Wook as “Greek God” had me in splits throughout – well, erm, he is that, but sadly, maybe mainly that in this show. I’m not complaining. Visual relief is always important.
— I hooted silently when Lee Joon Hyuk came on screen in a blink and miss scene. It was just the other day I had mentioned that it was a shame he wasn’t in this drama considering how many actors overlapped with Stranger, and voila.
About the writing and storytelling:
— the friendships are written/performed so well! They shine in comparison with the subtle-but-oh-not-so-subtle romance. I think LSY should stick to writing good friendships (cue reference, Stranger 2: please don’t mess it up).
— the storytelling style pushes a lot of standard dramaland boundaries: Things were not always explained well. A lot of sub-text was left for the audience to decipher. There were no clear resolutions. A lot of ambiguity remained right till the end, including on critical character motivations (or at least I felt so).
— this is what I respect LSY for – she doesn’t spoonfeed, and doesn’t treat audience as stupid. Her settings are also very real, and although dramatic license is employed often, there is enough to make you feel like this is familiar stuff, and that you could have been a part of this story yourself.
About other stuff:
— the BGM was louder and more prominent than it needed to be.
— the pacing was off in many many places. It was very slow and involved a lot of unnecessary shots of people staring into blank space.
— BUT BUT BUT the mid-length non-verbal ocean scene in the end between the Brothers Ye was so beautiful, and gave closure to a lot of unanswered questions (without actually answering them). This was one of the finest moments of the show overall, and I’m glad I stayed the course.
— My favourite line came at the end, from the character played by Tae In-ho, and. the context in which he said (after a career in a place he didn’t. like, with few friends left in the world, and no idea where to go next), “How is it that there’s nothing I want to do?”. That moment captured a lot of things, which felt very personal for me.
Overall, Life is definitely up there among the top – maybe 20 – kdramas I have watched. I truly appreciate that LSY is doing so much to write about serious issues that most folks in dramaland would avoid. I hope she keeps at it! Her oeuvre can only go from strength to strength at this rate.
I’m so glad you liked it. I’ve already told you.
Yes to all you say, my most favorite character was, as I have stated many times, Secretary Kang (it’s funny because I watched this show after watching Lawless Lawyer in which Yum Hye Ran’s character was so stereotypical…).
I like how LSY writes about real women. I’m not talking about strong, leading or extraordinary women, but about real women: like YeoJin in Stranger or all the female characters in Life. You didn’t mention Moon So Ri, and her Dr. Oh is just amazing. I loved how it was so clear on how a woman has to deal in man’s world to get to the top without one single explanation.
I also agree about Tae In Ho. Yes, yes, yes… he’s also one of my weakness.
And I didn’t want to sp*il you on LHJ cameo, because I almost fell off my couch when I saw him, hehe. That scene made me want a second season with him as the Hospital Director.
In the end, nothing really happened: it is just Life.
You’re right about the women in LSY’s writing – thank heavens for that. There’s no artificial coyness or any such rubbish in her depictions. I wish she would write more women in, though!!
All her shows have just a handful of women – the stories are still very much about the men.
And ah Moon So-ri – yeah, I think in my editing back and forth, her name got deleted! she was awesome as Dr Oh – suitably ambiguous – powerful – professional – ambitious – that scene with the Restructuring team where she starts with kicking the door open was some serious stuff!
Tae In-ho!! So underused in dramaland, IMO. I really wanted to see more of him in JBL too!
Thank you for not spoiling LJH for me – it was such a whistle-inducing surprise! I totally agree that this was beautifully set up for a season 2. Maybe Gu Seung-ho could be hired by the doctors to head the independent foundation they set up to buy Sankook out, and we could have a CSW-LJH face off here!! Ah, wishful thinking…
Ljfe totally lives upto its name and I’ll call it more of a slice of life and workplace politics drama than a medical one. That scene with the Ye brothers was amazing and I was a crying mess when I saw it. I have special apprecaition fr writers who include characters who are differently abled (sorry if I’m using the wrong term), both Life and JBL had characters who were human beyond a disability. LKH has done very sad roles but Life was most heart wrenching he just wanted to be considered and treated like a normal human being like everyone else. But I stuck through Life because of Gu Seung Ho. He was a very complex gray character and a typical “business man” but thay didn’t mean that he’ll side with the wrong. Like the characters the audience was equally in the dark about him, is he good? Is he bad? And our opinion about him changed with the characters. Dr Oh was another kind of gray character in Life, but for the admirable strong woman she is, everyone had a good view about her.
Agree that this is a workplace drama and not really a medical drama. But my grouse about not seeing enough of CSW’s smile remains 🙂 which is why I said I’d like to seem him as a regular guy in a plain ole’ slice of life. He was too much of the grey-hearted businessman here for me.
So right about the grayness of the characterization – that’s what I especially loved about the writing – there’s two sides to everyone. There were times I felt that Ye Seon-woo was taking advantage of others, or Lee Bun-ho was a scheming director, and many characters, like Glutton and Dr Oh, were unreadable at most times. This is what made it all so real and felt close to home in mimicking people around us.
CSW was terrific as GSH, making the character greyer than ash – even until the end, I wasn’t sure if I sided with or against him, just like I felt the doctors couldn’t make up their minds either. I came for Lee Soo-Yeon, but CSW was also definitely the second major draw for me. Like I said, I’m very biased – he’s a near perfect actor in my opinion. 😀
And I hear you about including characters who are specially abled (I am also not sure of what the appropriate term would be): Without becoming moralistic or taking the high ground, this show said so much about what life is like if you are in such a situation – whether it is the daily humdrum of your life, or emotional and mental state, or the extent to which you can have a full-blown professional career, and how your ambitions (professional, social, emotional) get curtailed. It was very sensitively and respectfully done. On this metric alone, I don’t think I have seen a better show. JBL also did a good job (and it is one of all time favourite shows), but I thought this drama did an even better job.
Won Jin-ah certainly felt like the weak link to me, if only because she was playing a character 10 years her senior, so she didn’t carry the weariness that the others naturally possessed about life (ha, ha). Maybe that was the point of her character, but her youthful face compounded by her small frame didn’t exactly help with the (unnecessary) love-line with CSW. I maaaybe get why he’d be initially drawn to her at least platonically – she gave him a chance instead of just writing him off as a businessman. I don’t get why she’d be romantically pulled towards him, and I felt zero chemistry between the two to justify his character coming for her in the final scene.
There’s a chance I just dislike her character too – I especially disliked how pity was kind of the only emotion that No-eul expressed towards Sun-woo. I can’t tell if it was a directorial choice, but Won Jin-ah/No-eul looked way too stunted for a noona hearing the confession from a dongseng, and looked traumatized more than anything else. In fact, she only looked traumatized, which puzzled me given the supposed emotional wisdom/maturity she showed CSW’s character. To me, it was pretty damning that the first thing she saw were his legs and the wheelchair before meeting his gaze, and I thought the show kind of let her off too easy for it.
One other thing that I thought was forced was Sun-woo’s health complications, like jeez give this guy a break! I just don’t get why we needed to have this additional side plot when the resolution (theatre scene) didn’t require it. I thought there was enough material to work with already, and I would have preferred if the drama more fully explored Sun-woo’s feelings of self worth instead of inducing angst by giving him only 10-15 years to live and a last minute guilt trip over his childhood accident. That said, I would have loved to have seen CSW’s character help Sun-woo in his character growth, and I really found their interaction outside No-eul’s apartment fascinating – Seung-hyo’s result oriented/no-nonsense perspective could have breathed a lot into a character weighed to the ground by self-pity.
Overall, I have to agree that for most of the drama, nothing really happened, but I was still really absorbed. Yoo Jae-myung had one or two too many monologues/speeches for my tastes, but I don’t blame them for trying recreate the magic in FoS. I loved seeing Dr. Oh take charge, and I thought Jin-woo’s characterization that her only flaw is that she views herself as the standard was spot-on, and we could see that her motivations/actions were really consistent through the lens of this characterization throughout the drama. Really glad to have watched.
Totally on-point observations about Won Jin-ah’s No-eul. I also felt there was zero chemistry. But I don’t know if it was about the casting alone, but also about the writing – I did not find the other romantic arc particularly well-done either (Jin-woo and the reporter). I also thought LDW was as much of a weak link as WJA.
There were TONS of monologues!! And yes they got a tedious. I worry that Stranger 2 might go down the same path – if not monologues, but interminably long and complex dialogues between two people, with no end or goal in sight – that is better for a written text, but doesn’t always translate well into performance.
The initial romance with the reporter was important only to show that there was nothing going on with No-eul. I was surprised they took it to the end.
Strangely, the only thought I had while watching Lee Dong-wook’s farewell to imaginary Sun-woo/himself was “wow, Jo In-sung is a better actor than I thought”, because I couldn’t help not compare it to that scene in It’s Okay that’s Love (beginning of ep 16). While LDW’s self confession fell very, very flat to me, I remember Jo In-sung’s was much more moving. It could be directorial – Jo In-sung did get a close-up while LDW was in a public space, but I thought LDW’s execution was poor overall. I didn’t think too much of his performance otherwise, but I may be giving Greek god who’s a doofus around girls too much of a pass.
“It’s Okay” is a show I did NOT like at all – disliked both the leads, the story, the execution, everything. I ff-ed through it to understand what the hype was about and didn’t get it still. I’m mighty glad that LSY did not pick LDW for Stranger 2 – he has a long way to go to fix his acting chops.
And oh yeah, the dynamic between Seung-ho and Seon-woo could have been better explored. That’s what I meant when I said the writer does non-romantic relationships well, and should focus on those. All the scenes between those two were superb – it also helps that they are generally outstanding actors.
The additional health complication was just wasted time, I agree, and caused unnecessary drama angst. There was enough otherwise in Seon-woo’s character to discuss the challenges of living normally when life throws you a curveball, and those parts were actually well done. Like the conversation between the brothers, when Jin-woo tells his brother he is a role model, and he replies that he doesn’t want to be one – I have had this exact same conversation with a close friend who was in a similar situation, which caused me to revisit my position on this issue fundamentally. That really hit home.
The ocean scene will be forever in my memory as one of the most beautiful moments in drama land. I loved every minute of Life.
The debates about the identity and role of the institution resonated strongly with debates about universities as they became corporatised and transformed into profit making organisations. There could not have been a resolution to this debate at the time Life was made. The process has been like an unstoppable juggernaut.
Ironically, with COVID-19, it’s all changed again, at least where I am, and the whole profit-making venture has fallen over. It would have been, and will continue to be, laudable and right if hospitals put healing people first and Universities were about the pursuit of knowledge and truth, but all of that seemed impossibly naive in the era of neo-liberalism.
In Life and Stranger2, Lee Soo-yeon brilliantly chooses contemporary hot spots and bravely explores what’s at stake. Best and most pleasurable viewing ever.
Yes! to the ocean scene. From start to finish, it was breathtakingly beautiful and so so appropriate in terms of its placement in the story. It wasn’t a random, oh lets give some visual relief, kind of scene. It had meaning and really pushed the story forward, or as in this case, gave closure.
“Contemporary hot spots” – brave is the word to use for LSY indeed! This is also why I drew comparisons with The Wire, because I see a similar attempt in her work to question the evolution of institutions and speculate on whether we truly understand our priorities or not, as human beings. I respect and admire her immensely for this, and I do hope she keeps this a running motif through her work, because for all the fluff on TV out there, we desperately need to have these kinds of conversations too!
I agree, these are conversations we need to have. I haven’t seen The Wire. I’ve just been reading about the outcome of the actual police vs prosecution debate in Korea and discovered how momentous it was. People demonstrated in the streets at the prosecution-led attack on the Justice Minister who initiated the attempt to reform the checks and balances between the two. She has written right into this in Stranger 2, and Koreans would not miss the connection. It all leads straight to the President and his pledge to bring more fairness to the country when he was elected. What actually happened was the system of privilege was even further exposed in the accusations against the progressive Justice Minister, Cho kuk. It’s truly the stuff of dramas. Clearly an opportunity she could not resist and has bravely taken on.
oh do watch The Wire if you get the chance – it’s a show that stays in your head for a long long time.
I love the real-to-reel transition you describe, and actually even envy the writer being able to do that (while also admiring her bravery) for not everywhere can you write (or dare to write) so openly. Do share links if you have recommendations on the subject. I will be only to happy to read.
The representation of the Assemblyman in the last episode of FOS appears to make a significant departure from the Justice Minister who actually fell prey to the prosecution in SK. My impression is that the actual Minister had been a hero of the Left and may still be for some. https://thediplomat.com/2019/10/south-koreas-cho-kuk-saga-ends/
But opinions have actually fractured the Left too: http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/art/2020/08/142_295124.html
The current episodes of FOS about trying to control the Assemblyman. In real life, it looks as if the prosecutors went for him like attaching sharks. The repercussions go all the way to the top and also erode the President’s promise to make a fairer Korea.
Thank you! This gives an interesting perspective to the storytelling. I wonder if, as in S1, this will take it all the way to the Blue House too – gunning directly for the President.
pickleddragon
December 21, 2020 at 8:01 PM
A terrific, incisive, scathing commentary on life in surveillance in China, a must-read for all those of us who have normalised the idea of state-sponsored surveillance through dramas (and in real life, including in my part of the world). This article bears particular relevance because it is written by a (now outcast) constitutional scholar in the country, a former law professor at Tsinghua University. I also highly recommend his other essays, available in translation, linked in the brief bio at the top of this article: http://chinaheritage.net/journal/cyclopes-on-my-doorstep-by-xu-zhangrun/
Maq
December 21, 2020 at 8:27 PM
A haunting essay. Thanks for sharing!
I think China is interesting for a lot of reasons. Even just 15 years ago, it was commonplace for people to talk about how economic growth and prosperity would inevitably — as if by some natural law akin to gravity — lead to democratization and liberalization in China. These days, it increasingly looks like China is disturbing some assumptions that have become widespread and almost reflexive among people in my part of the world. What if economic development is not systematically related with the promotion of civil liberties and other human rights? What if a repressive government could better promote the prosperity of a nation? What would people choose then? I think that’s the question China poses in this century. (It’s worth noting that, although people in China navigate panopticon-like surveillance, must be assiduously avoid political controversy, etc., I think the average person living in a place like Beijin or Shenzhen is probably pretty happy with his or her life.)
pickleddragon
December 21, 2020 at 9:28 PM
Fantastic insights as ever, Maq! I agree with everything you said. And this is precisely the Great China Experiment, right? Everyone else who tried to set up non-democratic systems has failed. It’s almost as though the Chinese want to defiantly prove that it is not impossible to succeed with this. I sense an egotistic streak (or a streak of pride, if you prefer) there too.
I also agree that the average person in China is probably happy and satisfied, and the dissent is coming from very few corners, and obviously not loud or powerful enough. What will truly be interesting though, is what happens after the Xi era ends (especially since serious contenders like Bo Xilai etc – well entrenched within the system – have been silenced a while ago). Does the CCP have its alternatives in place? Or is there a Plan B for a leaderless China? (The same question holds for Putin’s Russia too, btw – being an equally intriguing political experiment).
Personally, I think systemic stability is still not truly guaranteed, precisely because it is so heavily dependent on the individual who is at the top. (If the CCP appeared to have a system of ensuring that the leadership chain remains healthy and unbroken, I would have made a different argument.) So even though there’s a (temporary) semblance of peace and permanence, collapse remains both possible and probable.
stpauligurl
December 22, 2020 at 5:08 AM
Thanks for this link @pickledragon. What a powerful essay written so eloquently. But it was the photo of the cameras at the bottom of the page that really threw me. wow.
“I also agree that the average person in China is probably happy and satisfied, and the dissent is coming from very few corners, and obviously not loud or powerful enough”
unless you happen to be a Uighur…
https://www.vox.com/2020/7/28/21333345/uighurs-china-internment-camps-forced-labor-xinjiang
pickleddragon
December 22, 2020 at 6:22 AM
Of course, the outposts are a different story – the Uighurs, the Tibetans (the latter hitting much closer home for us), Hong Kong, Taiwan… Mainland Chinese appear ensconced in their happy bubble.
Maq
December 22, 2020 at 5:09 PM
I wonder about this, too. There are some people who think the CCP is deeply divided and/or unstable (Yascha Mounk recently had somebody on his podcast who has been a commentator on China for a very long time and who thinks China’s amazing economic and social achievements in conceal a rotting set of political institutions). Surely you’re right that Chinese system’s dependence on powerful leaders creates institutional risks. I know of at least two. The first is what Francis Fukuyama calls “the bad emperor problem”. In a system with fairly sweeping and centralized power in a single figure or institution and in which there is very little in the way of formal checks and balances, there is tremendous upside because there is little institutional restraint hindering beneficial government action (my favourite example of this is high-speed rail: California started the process of building HSR in 1996 and the first phase of construction is expected in 2033, whereas China started building in 2007 and already has an extensive HSR network which is – according to Wikipedia – the most extensive in the world), but the downside is also huge because bad leadership can do what it wants to do without there being a bulwark to protect against abuse. The second problem is compounded by the first and is the one you astutely note, namely the difficulties inherent in securing a peaceful and stable transition between leaders. On the one hand, the need to have a clear line of succession and a crop of good forthcoming leaders is essential precisely because of the so-called “bad emperor problem”. On the other hand, existence of competent leaders who have the necessary legitimacy to smoothly come into power when its their “turn” are a threat to any incumbent leader. It’s not surprising that, historically, similar systems of government suffered immensely when there were transitions. (Muslim Mongol rulers, who had fairly absolutist systems of government, used to routinely have civil wars after one khan would die in order to determine who would succeed the now dead khan; it severely weakened those khanates and often resulted in those Mongol khanates splintering. Similarly, the Ottoman sultans came up with the rather horrific institution known as the “Kafes” or, in English, “the Cage”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafes.)
pickleddragon
December 22, 2020 at 8:50 PM
That was very interesting. I didn’t know of the term Kafes, but the history of the Mughal empire is similar, I think. And I would imagine most imperial successions in many parts of the world (certainly in South Asia) were determined this way. That said, merely because leadership transitions have been violent historically does not justify instability in contemporary times. It surprises me as to how and why the rest of the politburo is fine with the present arrangement and whatever impending chaos is to inevitably follow.
As a follow up to the original link, I read this – slightly older but still relevant – excellent essay by the same commentator, which I thought was a great lesson in modern Chinese politics (as the non-communist world understands it, but from a Chinese perspective) with appropriate historical context. You might appreciate it as well: http://chinaheritage.net/journal/imminent-fears-immediate-hopes-a-beijing-jeremiad/
I’ve never formally studied political science or history (the latter as a minor at university only and I was always very poor at it), so my own analyses are usually very elementary and unsophisticated. So your inserts on all this are really fascinating and more importantly, thought-provoking. Thank you! 😊 🙏
Maq
December 22, 2020 at 9:01 PM
Thanks for the link! I’ll have a look at this essay on the weekend (drowning in legal files T_T).
I haven’t studied political science or history formally either, although as teenager I was dead-set on becoming a historian or a high school history teacher. I still have an interest in a lot of this stuff, although I find a lot of history is written as a parade of events without any attempt to explain anything. In fact, in university, I took a course in history once where I got the distinct impression from other history majors and from the professor that the modern study of history is resolutely opposed to abstract in favour of concrete particulars and eschews explanation in favour of hand-wavey claims about contingency, accident, etc. (Not that contingency or accident have no role in the study of human affairs. But it’s a bit of a cop-out when your account of a complex event like a war basically amounts to an account of what happened without any attempt to say why it happened, accepting as always that the study of history, politics, etc. is an inexact science and unlikely to produce the kind of certain, bulletproof explanations you get from harder science.)
True re Mughals! I use the historical examples merely as an example of the underlying mechanism which I believe creates the risk of instability and how that risk has manifested in the past. There’s no guarantee that a transition will be unstable or violent, although the risk is certainly there and may materialize (though one hopes it doesn’t).
pickleddragon
December 11, 2020 at 8:49 PM
As someone who is a big votary of including pop culture in the study of more conventional disciplines, this paper is right up my alley. It might also interest those who are studying, or teaching, or know people who study or teach, economics: “Diversifying the Use of Pop Culture in the Classroom: Using K-pop to Teach Principles of Economics” available here: https://privpapers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3732471
Eazal
December 12, 2020 at 12:42 AM
12 pages. I’ll save it for later. Thanks for sharing!
Maq
December 12, 2020 at 8:23 AM
Looks like a fun read!
pickleddragon
December 7, 2020 at 7:49 PM
For those of you who haven’t signed up for this, please watch Hikaru no Go (the live action cdrama adaptation of the manga / anime). A coming-of-age story about a young boy who is possessed by the spirit of an ancient Go master, and emerges a prodigy at the end of it, while learning about life, loss, belonging, friendship. It’s a show with so much heart, with an ensemble cast that is deserving of many accolades.
(this is my nth plug for this show, so for those who’ve been subject to my raving already, my apologies in advance!! i just want more people to love this show)
Maq
December 7, 2020 at 8:56 PM
The anime, right? It’s very good!
wapz
December 7, 2020 at 9:06 PM
There is a recent c-drama adaptation on it available on IQIYI.
Maq
December 7, 2020 at 9:12 PM
Ah!
pickleddragon
December 7, 2020 at 9:31 PM
If you do watch it, Maq, I’d love to know what you think!
The live action version has been adapted to the Chinese context. There are some political references at the start (in the first ep) that can be deemed controversial, but if you let all of that go, I thought it was a lovely show.
This show grabbed me in the first 5 minutes of the first episode, which I’d say is terrific for an opening. Plus the fact that I did not fast-forward at all through all 36 episodes.
Maq
December 7, 2020 at 9:53 PM
I’ll give the C-drama a shot and let you know what I think! I like the anime, so I imagine I’ll like the drama as well.
pickleddragon
December 7, 2020 at 9:24 PM
No no, the cdrama adaptation!
I haven’t watched the anime or read the manga.
here is the MDL link: https://mydramalist.com/45437-qi-hun
Kudo Ran
December 8, 2020 at 9:25 AM
I’ve seen AvenueX videos about it, will watch it next year ^^ (I haven’t watched the anime so it’ll be a new story to me)
pickleddragon
December 8, 2020 at 7:14 PM
Do please! It’s on iQiyi in my parts. I hope you will enjoy it as much as I did!
meowingme
December 8, 2020 at 7:23 PM
I used to read the manga faithfully but the comic book rent shop closed down and I lost thread ._.
Will check this out!
pickleddragon
December 8, 2020 at 11:40 PM
Aw shame! Hopefully this will wrap things up for you! I am tempted to read the manga myself now that I have watched the show.
Be warned though that the reviews suggest that the middle parts of the drama may be a little extra, although overall, I understand, it remains faithful to the original story.
pickleddragon
December 7, 2020 at 7:33 PM
Startup was a decent drama overall. It goes into my list of gateway dramas I would recommend to noobs.
Maq
December 7, 2020 at 8:59 PM
Hmmm, I had a hard time with it. It had the same kinds of problems that I had with Pinocchio — super under-developed and flat female lead + a male lead I disliked (despite the heroic efforts of NJH). IDK if it’s just me though.
pickleddragon
December 7, 2020 at 9:27 PM
The women in the drama were all shortchanged. I agree. But it was a pleasant drama, I thought. No major noble idiocy. There was some kind of a story. It was a light watch. Nothing to rack your brains about. Hence, that it’s a good gateway drama – to understand what kdramas are about. It is NOT on my top 10 ever list or any such thing. 😀
Maq
December 7, 2020 at 9:52 PM
I think it was a reasonably fun drama if you could put aside things that annoyed you about some of the characters. I think I just couldn’t get over how flat Dal-mi was, how cartoonish In-jae was portrayed throughout most of the drama, how under-motivated the romance was, and (perhaps most importantly LOL) how I couldn’t help but feel that Ji-pyeong should’ve been the main male lead in this drama (although, by the end, his weird tug-of-war with Do-san over Dal-mi was getting on my nerves, perhaps because I couldn’t understand why both of them were so attached to Dal-mi). I think the humour was pretty good at various points, I liked Chul-san and Sa-ha, and I think the acting was overall really top quality (Suzy excepted), but it just lost a lot its initial sparkle with me by the fifth week.
pickleddragon
December 7, 2020 at 10:08 PM
That third episode is now in my books as the best comic episode in kdramas to beat. I kept waiting for the show to repeat that magic, and you’re right, it never did. I’m picking at this show far less than I picked, say, at 18 Again. (And I don’t know why!!)
I must add that I didn’t get tired of the drama the way I got tired of, say, Brahms, or Oh My Baby, or IOTNBO. None of these are comparable genre-wise, but I found that the initial magic of all those dramas wore off very very quickly.
To clarify, Startup is not a show I’d rewatch (except for ep 3) 😀
Maq
December 7, 2020 at 10:17 PM
I loved episode 3 as well!
Interestingly, I found 18 Again a very light and easy watch, whereas I found this one frustrating in the second half. Not sure why. I think it’s because 18 Again was a light watch in my mind from the outset and didn’t create unrealistic expectations for me. Start-up, on the other hand, had a very solid first two weeks, and, although in retrospect many of the problems with the show were already apparent then, I think I expected the show would simply improve as it went along. But it didn’t. Sigh.
I haven’t watched Oh My Baby, so I can’t comment on that one. But I’ve noticed that there were several dramas this year which had strong beginnings but which petered out in the second half. Brahms definitely goes into that pile, as does IOTNBO (albeit to a lesser extent; Brahms managed to pull off something really special in the way it completely soured all the initial enjoyment I got from the main couple). Flower of Evil goes in this camp as well; so does Dinner Mates (although I will say that Dinner Mates still remained reasonably enjoyable for me throughout its run and I enjoyed Lee Ji-hoon’s performance immensely in the second half).
pickleddragon
December 7, 2020 at 10:42 PM
I’m yet to watch the last 4 eps of 18 Again, but I would classify that as a candidate for a good gateway drama too (for those willing to suspend disbelief about the age-change etc).
I watched the first episode of Flower of Evil somewhere half way through its run, and decided I would wait for the final verdict from y’all here on DB before attempting to finish it. I’m glad I didn’t.
I had forgotten about Dinner Mates! That one derailed for me very quickly. I wanted to wipe it out of my memory and clearly I have. I don’t even remember which episode I watched it until, but it wasn’t much. 😀
There’s a cdrama I would add to this list too – Go Ahead – it started off so well! and then just went *phut*. What the scriptwriters were smoking I don’t know. It could have been a perfectly decent found family drama, but they made it a strange quasi-incest story, with badly botched attempt to salvage it halfway. Ugh. It was a waste of a very talented ensemble cast (barring Song Weilong).
pickleddragon
November 8, 2020 at 11:09 PM
Just putting this out there: Could Young-san be the “revenge” guy in Start-up?
And totally random, but the opening credits for the show remind me of Piet Mondrian. Does anyone else feel the same?
redfox
November 8, 2020 at 11:44 PM
Mondrian, Klee, something, I think it is a parallel to Bauhaus maybe? an art factory similar to what Sandbox is to startups. Bauhaus was the original “incubator” except it invented new art concepts, color theory, composition, and how visible art should be in a home.
ok someone stop me, professional cretinism, artisan quirk…
pickleddragon
November 9, 2020 at 1:09 AM
Ha nice. The Bauhaus analogy works well! I like it!
Eazal
November 9, 2020 at 8:29 AM
Colours are not Mondrian.
Mondrian inspiration were the rice panels in Japanese houses.
This is more seventies to me.
pickleddragon
November 9, 2020 at 7:04 PM
I was thinking about the lines, and how the screen was split.
I didn’t know Mondrian’s inspiration! That is interesting. I will explore more! These are the same rice paper panels we see in kdrama homes, right?
pickleddragon
October 30, 2020 at 5:33 AM
Good comedians are hard to come by and so very precious indeed. Which is why I was delighted to see Yoo Subin being given a big plug by the leads of Startup. He was the shining star among the ducklings in Crash Landing on You, and he seems to be on track to besting that in his role here! More power to YSB!
parkchuna 🍉
October 30, 2020 at 6:50 AM
Aww they really praised him a lot! And KSH said he wants to play Won In Jae cause the character is so sad n lonely – Kang Hanna said she didn’t even get to eat, LOL.. WIJ fighting!
neener ~ Inside the Magic Shop ~
October 30, 2020 at 7:26 AM
Damn those dimples!
pickleddragon
October 30, 2020 at 7:43 AM
Ya I tried hard to not get distracted. My tactics of focusing on the content didn’t work much…
neener ~ Inside the Magic Shop ~
October 30, 2020 at 8:27 AM
It easy to get lost in those dimples!
pickleddragon
October 29, 2020 at 4:17 AM
A three-quarter review of 18 Again
Finally all caught up with the 12 available eps 18 Again. It took a 3-day sick leave break and some binge-watching-while-trying-not-to-fall-asleep-during-the-day to do this. And um, I have mixed views.
To begin with, I did not like the premise of the movie on which it is based, so I came in slightly biased (I never watched the movie, and don’t intend to). There is a lot – a LOT – of suspension of disbelief required in this show, starting with the central plot device of the “elixir of life” -induced transformation.
But let’s say I swallowed that pill and walked on, out of curiosity to discover what everyone was raving on about. I get some of it. The family dynamics are the main draw, with the epigrammatic truths that the characters periodically deliver. And yes, they’re nice.
But, the messaging felt a little trite, and the overall feel was a little… disney-ish (?). The underlying theme about what makes a happy family or reinforcing the institution of marriage or defining what it means to be a good parent… I found it a little more moralistic than I would have liked, sometimes re-emphasizing discomforting stereotypes (supermoms, for example) and too nicely gift-wrapped and tied-up-in-a-bow to be easily acceptable.
But then I think, maybe I’m being too cynical. Maybe the messaging is all deliberate. Maybe the writer/s recognised that this is a fairy tale, and as fairy tales tend to be, it’s a dark story about broken families and abandoned dreams, and the only way to mask the darkness was through this bokeh veneer.
There’s also a lot of genre whiplash I got while watching – one minute it’s a melo, the next a teen / idol romance, then an office drama, then a crazy comedy (with some otaku thrown in for flavour). I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. On the contrary, I’d say it takes great skill to marry all these genres together, but it’s definitely unsettling because I could never tell what was going to me next.
Now, even with all this, I cannot finish this note without saying that the characters are all darlings. You can’t hate anyone in this story, can you? I know Ye Ji-hoon is going to be broken hearted, and I want all four of the JBC rookies to get placed permanently, and I want the anime couple to figure their avatars out and join forces, and I want Si-woo to become a rockstar ball player, and I want Si-ah to be the fierce independent woman she’s meant to be… I’m rooting for everyone. That’s great character-writing, and excellent execution by the cast and crew all around. I cannot complain.
The cast. Oh the cast, especially, has been delightful. I don’t think there’s a single misstep in the casting. It’s a perfect ensemble any way you look at it. From the mature Lee Dohyun to the gorgeous Kim Haneul to my favourite Kim Mikyung to the JBL alumni reunion of Kimm Kyanghun and Lee Kiwoo, and the younger lot as well..
So basically, I’m confused. I’d say I kind of like the show, but kind of also don’t like it? Like the show itself, I leave it to you to figure out if you know what I mean. I’m not sure I do!
dokutokunaneko
October 29, 2020 at 6:09 AM
Love your thoughtful analysis! It’s funny how I actually don’t disagree with anything you said here, and yet I have absolute, utter adoration for this show. A few thoughts:
– Dajung is portrayed as 100% awesomeness (with some very minor flaws), but I don’t know if I’d call her supermom, or the idea here is the woman should be able to do everything. If anything, for the most part of her life, she was only able to do one thing – taking care of her family. It took her a while, in her 30s, to go to college, then started in terrible jobs, before she got where she is today. And her mom is living with her now to help take care of the kids (who are also grown up), so I didn’t see it as her being able to do both work and family all at once.
– This is definitely a feel-good drama, and I love it for that! Like you said, most characters here are so wholesome, with some realistic flaws, but no one is straight up evil (even the few “bad” characters like the sexist boss, Il-kwon, Yoomi; you’re very kind to Yoomi, btw lol I for one don’t think she deserves a slot as a permanent employee).
– I winced a bit at the comparison to Disney lol but, yes the morals of this story are quite straightforward. If we were to compare, I’d prefer to compare it to Pixar: simple, heartwarming story with a “teaching” message to tell, through well-done storying telling. I did love how realistic all the challenges this family faced are, and the show was so good at making me care about these characters, that I only want good things to happen to them. In real-real life, Dajung might never have gotten her break. Dajung and Daeyoung might have hurt each other too much to even consider reconciling. But by starting the show with a fantastical premise (“going back to your youthful body”). I do believe the show set itself up as a fairy tale, like you said. I don’t believe in dramas where characters are tortured needlessly and struggle without any payoff (what would I be watching for, if I root for them?) so in this case, I’m happy that the characters are getting the (very belated) chances they deserve. It probably says more about how and why I watch dramas, than the drama quality itself though 😉
Hope you’ll keep watching and sharing your thoughts with us!
pickleddragon
October 29, 2020 at 10:58 PM
Thank you for your awesomely detailed response! Pixar or Disney – so long as you get the point 😀 (haven’t watched enough Pixar to know what their oeuvre is like). Fairy tales and Disney were on my mind because I’ve had Salem Ilese’s song running on loop in my head since I heard it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjiAFcaqV70)
I think Yoomi needs the right mentoring and with a bit of help, can do well. I always feel for folks setting out in new jobs, clueless about what to do, learning life lessons along the way. I think it comes from that perspective. And as for Il-kwon, I think Lee Kiwoo has always been shortchanged in the characters he plays (the ones I’ve seen at least), so I think I feel bad for him as an actor more than for him as the character. Hehe.
And yes, totally agree that Dajung is not supermom, but I feel like the show is selling the idea of being supermom to us. As though women should be able to do everything – have the awesome job, keep the family together, manage the parents and the in-laws. It’s shown as aspirational and desirable, and I have problems with that. :/ I deeply respect women in real life who do that (including in my own family), but I am uncomfortable with encouraging this idea. It’s the same feeling I have about a lot of the (especially family-oriented) messaging and stereotypes that the show puts out and perpetuates: marriage is good; divorce is bad; look after your parents and in-laws; boys play ball; women look pretty and become TV announcers…
I’m probably being selective in calling this out here, because it is true of probably every other kdrama out there. :p So it isn’t really fair. But maybe I’m in the mood. Sorry for subjecting you to this!
I will keep watching, I think!, and will join in occasional conversations like this 😀 thank you 🙂 it’s nice to be talking about these things!
I like your reason for drama watching – I agree completely that the best dramas are those that have characters you can root for!! I think in another mind space, I might have adored this drama as much as the rest of you, but maybe I’ve been wired differently for now… My cynicism hasn’t been fixed yet :p I’m trying to work on that!
dokutokunaneko
October 30, 2020 at 8:39 AM
Oh! I think you’d like Nothing but Thirty then! There are a couple of divorces in there, with very different trajectories, to show the different kinds of lives and choices different women make. Again, wait till ep 15 or so before making judgment lol it all gonna go somewhere I promise!
pickleddragon
October 30, 2020 at 9:28 AM
Haha noted. Will hold out till ep 15 at least! 😀
Lixie
October 29, 2020 at 7:02 AM
Thanks for the great post. I feel a little less cynical disliking this drama. I kept thinking it’s me being too picky or just not the target for this kind of show but you nicely explained some of my reasons. I’ve only watched until ep 8 btw so maybe it will pick up later. I can’t say I dislike these characters but I don’t exactly like them either because I find all of them quite superficial and one note.
So many things seem either unlikely or very hard to believe. This makes some moments others consider heartwarming, a bit ridiculous, I blame my cold heart kkk
When DY had that insight about the husband drinking because he worked stupid long jobs it was so silly, she isn’t that dumb that she would not have understood that in 18 years.
The fact he became distant from the kids felt completely contrived. It’s been 8 eps and we still know almost nothing about the kids. I don’t believe for a second that his whole family would have kept a relationship with his dad but that guy would still manage to stay away from his father. Again, this doesn’t match DY or HDY personality.
I’m also disliking the fact that he made a big deal about letting the wife go her own away after the divorce but every ep there are romantic scenes with them. Divorce can be good! They are that classic example of a couple that grew apart, nothing wrong with that. Lastly I’ve been waiting for HDY to enjoy being a boy again but it’s all about fixing his family and doing what he didn’t do when he was the dad, it’s completely unrealistic, as if he would be selfish to do anything only for himself and drama must sell him as being a nice person.
pickleddragon
October 29, 2020 at 11:01 PM
Haha, I’m as cold hearted as well, I think! Thanks for calling out the things that seemed a little unrealistic. This is among several such through the show.
I also feel like there’s a drastic personality shift in Hong Dae Young as a kid and now – he didn’t seem to be the shouty kind as his (real) 18-year-old self, but he’s become this sort of person over the years. It’s possible, but I also find it anomalous and the transformation isn’t totally easy to swallow.
Maq
October 29, 2020 at 8:33 AM
😢😢😢
pickleddragon
October 29, 2020 at 11:07 PM
Aw Maq, no worries! Thank you for recommending it to me though! I’m still glad I watched it, it’s given me perspective on stuff I’m beginning to like and not like about kdramas. Also, I’m sticking with this through till the end, now that I’ve made it to 12/16!! I might yet become a full convert 🙂
(Also, we will still rave together about all the other dramas we’re on the same page on, hehe!)
Maq
October 30, 2020 at 8:12 PM
Still a bit sad that I don’t get to rave over this one too =( But I get and I don’t think you’re wrong about anything you’ve said. For example, there is a Disney-ish element to this show in some ways, although I find it works for me in this and it doesn’t detract from the experience for me. Similarly, if you stare at the show, you find lots of things that are not very believable . Why did Deok-jin accept young Dae-young so easily? Why isn’t Ae-rin spooked out of her mind? Why aren’t all the people who knew Dae-young when he was younger (especially Da-jung) alarmed by the appearance of a doppelganger? Why aren’t Si-woo or Si-a alarmed by Dae-young, who seems to have forced his way into their lives as Woo-young? Etc etc. Nevertheless, this show is really working for me and it’s what I look forward to most each week.
Maq
October 30, 2020 at 8:12 PM
I don’t get to rave over this one with you too****
pickleddragon
November 5, 2020 at 5:14 AM
Yes to all this!! Exactly the issues I was having 😀 I think I am nitpicking too much for this drama, because otherwise I’d have swept all my issues under the carpet and gone with the flow. Ah well. I still have to catch up with this week’s episodes! But life has been a little chaotic. Maybe I’ll finish all of them up together next week.
pickleddragon
October 27, 2020 at 10:23 PM
Recording my thoughts on Record of Youth
I stayed the course for this show to my shock and surprise. More because of convenience than anything else (instant subs – thank you Netflix; and scheduling – light watch at dinnertime on otherwise dull Mondays and Tuesdays).
I don’t think it was a great drama at all, or even a good drama at that. But at its heart, the story had something going for it. On paper it must have seemed like a great coming-of-age drama, and that explains why it attracted so many top billing actors. But the dialogue was mostly pretentious, and the execution was totally off.
Oh, and Park Bo Gum is beautiful, yes, even when he cries. I get that now. 😀 But this is not a project he’ll want to boast about in his résumé. Also, this does not change my opinion about his acting. About Park So Dam – she seems the same as she was in that awful Cinderella drama. Maybe she should stick to the movies. I was hoping Byeon Woo Seok would be more than just a pretty face, but. it might be unfair to judge him on the basis of two very average dramas (this and Flower Crew). The only actor who stood out for me was Shin Dong-mi CEO of Jjampoong, Min-jae unnie/noona. She has great comic timing, and it will be good to see more of her.
Maq
October 27, 2020 at 10:35 PM
+1 gazillion
I’m not a huge fan of anybody in this cast, but it still surprised me that somebody with PBG’s star power would choose this drama. IDK. This year, all the dramas I anticipated disappointed me and all of the dramas that impressed me were dramas I had no expectations for/no clue about beforehand. That holds true for this one as well. I had expectations and was disappointed.
pickleddragon
October 27, 2020 at 10:57 PM
TBH, I waited for this drama only to see what the director was unto! (because he did this project instead of Stranger 2). Maybe he’s regretting it too 😀
Not a fan of any of the cast either. I thought the seniors were especially badly cast – all the families were so wooden. The story had a lot of a family drama vibe going for it, but I felt the casting did not do the storytelling justice.
I agree with the ‘no expectations’ dramas – Into the Ring (totally from left field), and now Startup (again, not a fan of any of the cast. Fingers tightly crossed for this one!! It’s been so good so far)
mugyuljoie is preciousss
October 28, 2020 at 2:07 AM
I’ve been wondering if the translations are accurate since this writer is known for her dialogue. Perhaps the Netflix translation isn’t capturing the nuance.
I liked the shorter drama First Time/Because It’s The First Time much better as a coming of age story and it also has a better character for Park So Dam. The one thing I’ve liked in RoY is the friendship between the three young men.
pickleddragon
October 28, 2020 at 6:58 AM
Ooh. I haven’t watched First Time. I will check it out.
I must admit I liked the real life touch this drama gave with PBG enlisting at the same time as his character. That was nicely done. The friendship was also nice, I agree. 🙂 But I do feel kdramas have done friendships/bromances and family relationships better than this.
pickleddragon
October 28, 2020 at 7:00 AM
Netflix subs are terrible. I know maybe 20 Korean words from my one year of watching kdramas, and even I can tell the translations are off. The only reason I like them are the “instant gratification” purpose they serve. Which means I don’t get ruined by spoilers (not that I mind much, tbh). Otherwise, I’d pick Viki over Netflix anyday. I don’t have access to Kocowa so I don’t know how that holds up against these two, but I hear it’s generally not great.
mugyuljoie is preciousss
October 28, 2020 at 9:43 AM
I can confirm Viki is the best for subs. Kocowa isn’t as good.
parkchuna 🍉
October 28, 2020 at 3:23 AM
Yup it’s fascinating how So Dam does so well in movies and not so for her dramas. A bit like Kim Go Eun i think..
pickleddragon
October 10, 2020 at 7:18 AM
Seeking recommendations, to prevent myself from getting into a slump I don\’t want to be in:
1. Rom-com / Fluff: Into the Ring is the current gold standard. Is it too much to ask for one where both leads are smart/intelligent?
2. Dramas that have a story to tell, and tell it well. Like – a Drama, y\’know. Like a good unputdownable novel. They need not be rom-coms. E.g., My Mister, Misaeng, or, of course, FoS1/2.Language no bar. K/C/TW dramas are all considered! Thank you muchlots in advance.
neener ~ Inside the Magic Shop ~
October 10, 2020 at 7:26 AM
Have you checked out Someday or One Day? it’s a Taiwanese drama.
wapz
October 10, 2020 at 8:03 AM
I second this.
pickleddragon
October 10, 2020 at 9:49 AM
I (kinda) live watched SOOD. Even though I’m not a fan of the genre, it was excellent all around! Actually, I might do a rewatch sometime. You’ve given me an idea 🙂
neener ~ Inside the Magic Shop ~
October 10, 2020 at 9:38 PM
It’s not that long too, great for a rewatch!
wapz
October 10, 2020 at 8:12 AM
Your standards are high and unfortunately there aren’t many great shows 😅
Still if language is not an issue then I can recommend you dramas I liked a little less than the ones you have written but are still good:
Jdrama: If talking paid (slice of life/family)
Cdrama: Twenty your Life on (coming of age/slice of life)
(cdramas I didn’t watch but maybe upto your liking “The Bad Kids” and “Nothing but Thirty”.
Tdrama: Someday or One day (telling the genre might just spoil it for you)
pickleddragon
October 10, 2020 at 10:03 AM
Thanks wapz! I agree about the standards – I think they’re universally approved, no? (at least on DB :D). Ordinarily I’d have been happy with something less good, but I worry that I’ll totally slump if I don’t get to watch something really compelling.
I loved Bad Kids!!! Actually, The Long Night is on my list – I’d forgotten about it. Will pull it up.
This reminds me – another cdrama I want to watch is Crossfire, but the last time I checked on YT, the official subs were not up. *sigh* I might have to watch elsewhere…
I tried Twenty your life on, based on one of your posts only, I think! But it didn’t quite click :/ I’m yet to watch Nothing but Thirty, but if it’s anything like The First Half of My Life, I don’t think I want to watch (I hate-watched that show, and couldn’t finish it).
I’ve watched Someday and thought it was excellent (despite the genre :p)!
Haven’t yet watched a jdrama I loved – there’s something stylistically different about jdramas that I haven’t quite wrapped my head around. I will give this a try!
wapz
October 10, 2020 at 10:25 AM
Haha yeah these shows are so good and so rare to come by.
J dramas are stylistically quirky and episodic which is why it’s harder for me to make them regular. Otherwise I think they do the best slice of life in this region. If talking paid is similar too but it may not be everyone’s cup of tea.
Can you tell me why you didn’t like TYLO? Because it feels like I’m the anomaly 😅 I know people liked it and I particularly did because I saw myself in the girls, it was very real for me and first and foremost about the girls then any other man so it appealed to me. But it doesn’t seem like many beanies liked it and I’m suspecting my tastes are indeed changing hah.
I also heard that “A Murderous affair in Horizon tower” was good so you can give it a try. The kdrama based on the jdrama, Dangerous wife seems to be getting good reviews too. I’ll check it today (I didn’t like the original but I’m hearing the k version is different).
But basically a good show will inevitably get you in a slump once it ends if nothing is equally good around. I’d say relax to watch some k variety shows instead. It’s a whole new world and more entertaining.
wapz
October 10, 2020 at 10:35 AM
Also have you seen “This week my wife will have an affair”?
pickleddragon
October 30, 2020 at 7:30 AM
Y’know this has been on my list forever! Viki has it, and I have been told it’s a very different LSK from what we’re used to seeing, so I should get to it. 😀
pickleddragon
October 30, 2020 at 7:29 AM
I forgot about this thread :/ My bad. Sorry for the late reply!
I can’t remember now why I didn’t like TYLO. Maybe I couldn’t connect with any of the characters? I agree that the really good thing about the show was that it was about the girls and not about the boys. Considering that drama viewers are probably 99% female, it is a good sign that they’re making shows that talk about women alone, and their lives, without focusing on the men. I guess other than this factor, the show didn’t stand out from any of the similar dramas about a group of female friends?
Before Murderous Affair, I plan to watch The Long Night. I’m bracing myself for heartbreak, though, of which there is plenty in that, I am told.
And y’know, I actually haven’t seriously watched a k-variety show. If you had to recommend one which is subbed and easily available in English, what would you suggest? I’ve watched bits of Running Man, and clips of 2N1D, and find both of them, um, ok. Variety is not really my thing, but I’m open to discovering something new. I like travel shows a lot, and was wondering if one of the k-variety / travel shows are good?
wapz
November 1, 2020 at 1:50 AM
No worries. I usually forget to reply back too.
Variety looks very weird in the beginning but it grows strongly on you eventually. I remember watching one epusode of Running Man and thinking why on earth does everyone praise it but actually it was just stylistically very different from sth I’ve ever seen and it took me a few episodes to understand everyone’s character and love their intercations. So while I would always recommend Running Man, it will be better to start from a show that is easier to understand. And for that, you can check out the recently ended Sixth sense. It’s only 8 episodes long but it so fun because the girls are a riot. Though for travel variety there are always the Na PD shows (one other thing in variety is that producers have a very big affect on the sytlistic sense of their shows that one can easily tell what show belongs to which PD), i. e. The over flowers shows (grandpa over flowers, youth over flowers, noona over flowers), new journey to the west and three meals a day. The best way to start variety is to watch an episode where one of the celebs you want to watch comes in as a guest or regular cast member. For instance I’ll definitely recommend Youth over Flowers Laos for the reply 1994 cast (Yoo Yeon Seok, Baro and Sohn ho jun) but among my favorites in Yof’s was YOF Iceland with (Jo jung Suk, Kang Han Neul, Jung Woo). Likewise if you want to see a specific celebrity being a guest, you can pick that Running Man or Knowing bros episode. I’m not a regular watcher too, I just pick any epusode if I hear it’s really good but it’s a good breather and great for relaxing.
pickleddragon
November 5, 2020 at 5:05 AM
@wapz – this list of recommendations and your strategy for watching/picking episodes is fantastic. I hadn’t thought of it that way – i.e., watch episodes for a celebrity (maybe because I don’t really fangirl on anyone majorly… sigh.. I wish I did). This makes so much sense. The “Over Flowers” series are what I have heard the most about too. I will also look for the others you have mentioned. Thank you so very much!
dokutokunaneko
October 29, 2020 at 5:48 AM
I have not watched The first half of my life, but having read reviews of it, I’m rather confident that Nothing but Thirty is nothing like it 🙂 It’s a slow burn though – I kept watching somewhat indifferently until episode 15 or so (I guess the fact I didn’t drop it was already a pretty good sign!), and then suddenly realized I cared so much about all the characters, and all the previous slowly built plot points converged and the show kinda picked up from there. So hang tight!
If you haven’t seen it already, Story of Minglan is my absolute favorite cdrama (also give it 15 episodes please lol) Both leads are intelligent, and white it’s not a Drama the way My mister is, it’s not a romcom either. Really fun and moving story about family 🙂
pickleddragon
October 30, 2020 at 7:32 AM
Ah I think Story of Minglan is a costume drama, right? I have minor costume drama allergy – Joy of Life is something I’m slowly watching, as an exception to that. Maybe I’ll get to Minglan after!! (I still haven’t watched Untamed, for ex.)
That’s an attractive description for Nothing But Thirty! I might pick that up soon. Thank you for the recommendation!
dokutokunaneko
October 30, 2020 at 8:34 AM
Ah yes but it’s not costume drama in the same way that JoL is, meaning, it feels more like a historical drama that focuses entirely on a family rather than a dynasty. JoL is more…fantastical I’d say. The period setup is to provide the central conflict: being a woman in a society that doesn’t give you much freedom.
A warning about Nothing but Thirty since I know you don’t care for didactic moralistic stories 😂 I do think at times it’s a bit like that, but the character development still feel very true to life, and life here being Chinese society with a lot of imposed community driven rules. I’d say it’s a story about 3 women who try to live within and/or break out of those boundaries, sometimes they fail and sometimes they succeed.
Mani-chan
October 10, 2020 at 9:05 AM
I’m really enjoying 18 Again rn. It’s really nice so far
pickleddragon
October 10, 2020 at 10:04 AM
Thanks! I’ve been seeing posts by you and some others about this show 🙂 I’ll explore further.
SeeSamME
October 10, 2020 at 4:27 PM
How about French series? I would definitely recommend The Bureau (Le Bureau des Legendes) a French spy thriller about daily life and mission of the intelligence officers. Unlike American spy movie, it’s complex, intelligent, realistic, empathetic and so intense without action scenes. It shows the intricacies of politics and networks around the world with superb acting, detailed writing and complex characters. It’s considered the best French Tv, on par with The Wire.
pickleddragon
October 30, 2020 at 7:35 AM
Ooh Le Bureau sounds awesome – any Wire comparison gets me interested! But I can’t find it on any of the usual networks. Will look for it some more.
I love French TV, haven’t watched enough though! They do comedy so well!! And Marseilles was pretty decent for a political thriller as well.
SeeSamME
November 2, 2020 at 8:43 PM
Try SBS On Demand they have all seasons and is free but it’s only available in Australia. Do you use VPN ;).
Will check out Marseille. I like French comedy, its charm, sarcasm and not to your face type.?Have you watched Call my agent? French comedy in Netfix?
pickleddragon
November 5, 2020 at 5:01 AM
I *loved* Call my Agent! It’s *such* a well made show. Definitely the best comedy I have watched. I wish more people would watch it! I try to plug it whenever I get the chance. I also thought “A Very Secret Service” was not bad, though not in the Call My Agent league.
I need to figure out a good VPN service. sigh. I think it will solve a lot of my issues.
Thanks for the SBS OnDemand tipoff. Will figure out how to access 😉
strawberry
October 11, 2020 at 7:16 PM
Ohhhh okie maybe some possibilities:
(I’m also tossing in some US/Canadian shows that I love at the moment!)
1. Rom-com/Fluff: Just Between Lowers (forever my fav and def worth giving it a shot if you haven’t seen it already!), Schitt’s Creek (ahh what a feel-good and cozy show~).
2. Nobody Knows (gosh this was so good!), Hyena (the leads’ chemistry is off the charts!), Barry (it gives me a lot of feels).
Teehee! Hope this helps~ :3
pickleddragon
October 30, 2020 at 7:37 AM
I *love* Just between Lovers! It’s on my all-time favorites list! Same with Nobody Knows – I thought it was an *exceptional* show, among the best of 2020. Hyena was such a riot too – thank you for the suggestions – clearly we have similar taste 😀
I haven’t watched Schitt’s Creek or Barry. I haven’t watched English-language TV in a long time now! Will check them out. Thank you 🙂
strawberry
October 31, 2020 at 11:17 AM
yay! wow i did not expect that our tastes are that simillar! :3
I hope you find these two shows fun! Schitt’s Creek only has 6 seasons with really great thought-out characters arcs and very easy to breeze through. Barry is a bit more intense and makes me sad half the time.
acacia
October 11, 2020 at 11:53 PM
You may have already watched these but some of my favorites sans what you already listed
1. Buamdong Revenge Social Club – one of the best non-romantic yet not super serious drama. The sismance of the lead ajummas are the best!
2. Nokdu Flower – if you are ok with sageuks it’s one of the best and pulls at your heartstrings in all the right places. A story of regular people and hope
3. Mother – the best cryfest ever. Makes you think of what the term “mother” means.
4. Nobody Knows – A story of a too perfect kid and bad adults. But also a story about bunch of good adults that try to find the truth about several related crimes. A story where cops actually have teamwork lol
6. Save Me – About cults and getting out of one.
7. Save Me 2 – story is unrelated to Save Me sans a pseudoreligious cult type scenario. It has an equally compelling story with Um Tae Goo as the brash main.
8. The Guest – Exorcisms and interesting partnerships. Scary but worth the ride.
pickleddragon
October 30, 2020 at 7:41 AM
Ooh I’ve only watched #4 – Nobody Knows.
I’ve been keen on Nokdu Flower (despite my costume drama allergy), and excited that Netflix has picked it up. And I’ve read about Buamdong Revenge Social Club before on DB – I need to look that up. Someone reviewed Mother as well recently I think – I need to. brace myself for a tearfest before watching it.
I’m not sure about 6-8, because they don’t sound like genres I might enjoy. But I’ll give them a shot since you recommend! Thank you!!
acacia
October 30, 2020 at 9:42 AM
If it helps convince you more, Save Me 1 has Woo Dohwan (it’s his break out and maybe debut work) and Seo YeJi (it’s one of her earlier works) and Taecyeon (he’s the main but Woo Dohwan steals the show)
pickleddragon
October 30, 2020 at 10:06 AM
Hahaha. WDH is a great reason! Good hardselling! 😀
pickleddragon
October 4, 2020 at 9:16 AM
And a smile to end it all!
“I’m in hell” was reminiscent of Faustus, Mephistopheles, and that Lost Paradise.
The whole story in one killer line.
Slow clap.
Thank you for the ride, Team FOS2.
Eazal
October 4, 2020 at 12:24 PM
I’m a little in Hell myself now that it’s over 😕
pickleddragon
October 4, 2020 at 2:07 AM
Here\’s an excellent piece about the evolution of kpop groups over the past ~30 years, mainly about size and changing relevance of roles of different members of the groups: https://pudding.cool/2020/10/kpop/
It helped me understand the maze that is kpop better. I also really appreciated the analogy with football (soccer) to explain kpop \”teams\” and fandom. Oh, and super dataviz, which is something that *always* excites me!
Eazal
October 4, 2020 at 3:49 AM
Thanks for sharing. Very interesting.
Lixie
October 4, 2020 at 7:45 AM
Nice article. Maybe the analogy with soccer is misleading though? Every soccer player has a role, which is strategic and all about playing the sport, they are needed for the team to play. These groups can have anything from 3 to 30 people. No soccer player is cast because he is pretty or charming, no externals factors matter. None of them gets cast because the process of casting itself became a lucrative game.
pickleddragon
October 4, 2020 at 9:10 AM
Agreed about the sporting factor in football, and how strategy has a role to play in sport which a pop group cannot replicate. I won’t defend the analogy unnecessarily, but if one had to do so, one could argue that topping the charts is the equivalent of the championship; and that “visuals” are an intrinsic factor in kpop teambuilding, just as finding the right midfielder would be in football. The analogy also helped explain – to me – fandoms, and how team support evolves. Also, casting may have become a lucrative game in the construction of teams in sporting leagues as well (not so much in building national teams)?
Lixie
October 4, 2020 at 9:41 AM
Yes, professional sport is sometimes as terrible as kpop industry. When I talked about a soccer team it was more about the concept of the game and not about the complicated schemes created by indusytry only to make money from the sport and the fans. Why should a music group need some member just to be pretty or charming? When did they start selling beauty and personality traits as something of equal value ? These groups became disposable objects, the music is just another element of the equation instead of the reason of their existence.
pickleddragon
October 4, 2020 at 9:46 AM
True. It’s really no longer about the music. Just like sport is no longer about the sport. 🙁 As someone who used to watch all kinds of sport (except golf and motor-racing) throughout her teens, by when the idea of “pure sport” was already vanishing, this is especially telling.
pickleddragon
October 3, 2020 at 8:34 PM
There had better be a Season 3 for FOS. And while I hope the crew stays intact, I sure hope they KEEP THE EDITOR! I don\’t study film but Ep 15 was a masterclass in editing.
PYC
October 3, 2020 at 10:20 PM
Cho Seung-Woo said he can do 5 seasons which would be terrific. HSM together with HYJ are now the heart and soul of this series – can’t imagine FoS without them.
pickleddragon
October 3, 2020 at 10:28 PM
Of course, that the HSM and HYJ partnership should stay goes without saying! I didn’t mention my hope that the cast remains as is for obvious reasons. I’m secretly wishing they’ve actually started making S3 😀
Maq
October 3, 2020 at 11:24 PM
I sort of want them to let it go after this. Two excellent seasons is good enough. I say leave it at that — leave it while they’re ahead! — and let the writer do something else, something that is different but equally amazing.
SeeSamME
October 4, 2020 at 12:27 AM
Imagine the pressure they have to face with S3 being compared to two previous seasons, both are excellent.
pickleddragon
October 4, 2020 at 12:27 AM
That is tempting also. But Lee Soo Yeon is such a fine writer, and I feel she’s got under the skin of these characters completely – she owns them – she has to give us more. I’m just greedy.
*covers face*
Eazal
October 3, 2020 at 11:51 PM
Yes to all!
I really need another season! I was ready to like this one even knowing it may not be as good as S1, but know I feel like a kid who has to answer: who do you love more mum or dad?
pickleddragon
October 4, 2020 at 12:30 AM
I know!! Me too! I was biased before this show started. I was so hyped up way long before the first air date, and was basically twiddling my thumbs during the intervening period for this to show up. I would have loved it even if it wasn’t this good (although, “less than this good” would have been fine by any other drama standards!!). It’s a bonanza that it’s turned out this brilliant. Finer than S1. Way more than we bargained for.
SeeSamME
October 4, 2020 at 12:22 AM
Both BDN and LJH said they are happy to join CSW for more seasons. FoS is the drama they love dearly and very proud to be part of it. So it’s up to the writer if she can come up with a new script and are willing to put her neck on the chopping block again.
pickleddragon
October 4, 2020 at 12:33 AM
That is the big big risk. But I trust this writer so completely. Three excellent scripts FOS 1 & 2 and Life… I can’t see her do a bad job. Or even if she does, I will take it. Because I feel this writer putting in a lesser effort will be better than most others’ best effort.
Also, only BDN and LJH? Not CSW? I thought he was the one who wanted 5 seasons in the first place. 😀 In any case, I can see a S3 with LJH taking centrestage, especially since we’ve been LJH-deprived for most of this season…
SeeSamME
October 4, 2020 at 1:29 AM
Because CSW wanted to do until season 5, they gladly join him for a ride. There is still hope for S3.
I will follow this writer to the end of the world 🙂
bewitched
October 4, 2020 at 1:33 AM
Second that! And I want a lawyer in season 3, a good one. The lawyers we got so far are shady and have temperament problem. Could Dong-jae return as a lawyer to join force with Shi-mok and Yeo-jin pleaseeee?
dramalover4ever
October 4, 2020 at 3:54 AM
Now there’s an idea
acacia
October 6, 2020 at 3:42 AM
I’m all in for Prosecutor Kang as the righteous lawyer role!!
bewitched
October 6, 2020 at 5:08 AM
Count me in! After his conversation with Shi-mok in the last episode I do want him to work as a lawyer. Maybe ask Dong-jae to join him lol. We know Dong-jae needs some guidance to keep him in line.
dramalover4ever
October 4, 2020 at 3:52 AM
I can’t see how they are going to wrap it all up in one more episode, so I’m guessing there may be some unresolved stuff (I don’t know if I can survive the stress though)
bewitched
October 4, 2020 at 10:15 AM
They’re planting the seeds for season 3 I guess?lol. But SF is never a series that ties the ending neatly, just like irl society there won’t be a nice idealistic closure.
pickleddragon
October 4, 2020 at 10:26 AM
Exactly! They’ve totally set it up for S3!!
pickleddragon
September 27, 2020 at 10:02 PM
My last fanwall comment asked if FOS2 Ep12 could be bettered. That was basically me telling myself to temper my expectations from the rest of the show. And then ep14 came along…. WHOA.
I didn\’t think it\’s possible, but it seems that S2 is way way better than S1!
I\’m so deeply in love with this show and everything about it. I\’m incoherent in my adoration.
Katrina
September 27, 2020 at 10:05 PM
Shi-mok was On this hour! Chills
Eazal
September 27, 2020 at 10:55 PM
I understand you so much.
I’m totally biassed on my love for this show.
And ShiMok!! OMG!!
I think I can watch episode 14 in a loop for days!
PYC
September 28, 2020 at 12:42 AM
It’s impossible but true – S2 is much more superior than S1.
KSKalways
September 28, 2020 at 8:09 AM
my olnly qualms is that it had a very very slow start. Now that we’re at ep14, I see what they tried to do and I appreciate it, but it might have deterred a few less-patient / less-engaged audience members, and that’s unfortunate.
pickleddragon
September 28, 2020 at 9:59 PM
I liked the beginning actually – it was very metaphoric of the story itself – I has hooked from the start 😀
pickleddragon
September 20, 2020 at 9:04 AM
FOS2 Ep12: Wow, can this get any better? So much to love in this episode! Spoiler comments below:
pickleddragon
September 20, 2020 at 9:11 AM
1. The parallels between CB-WTH and HYJ-HSM were obv. my favourite part this episode.
2. Lots of HYJ-HSM scenes to make up for the lack of, previously. Opposite-sex platonic friendship so well written! Learn, people, learn. I could watch dramas about such friendships ALL the time.
3. Hanjo ties up to main story in a big way.
4. I love love LOVE that three central characters are women, and they are never EVER shown as props for anyone or anything else. Fabulous writing.
5. That National Assembly-like debate about police vs prosecution was a lesson in writing dialectic. And the after-conversation between HYJ-HSM, which put it all into perceptive.
6. HSM SMILES! Like actually, lips upturned, reacting at the right time, in friendly banter. It was like a sigh of relief after all that tension.
Lee Soo-Yeon – I bow to you!
SeeSamME
September 20, 2020 at 9:35 AM
Everything to what you said!
Love the council meeting. Everyone’s acting and how they delivered their lines were sooo good there.
drink ur water
September 20, 2020 at 9:48 AM
I bursted with Geon’s line in that meeting. I was waiting for him to at least say something and when he finally did.. i LOLed.
pickleddragon
September 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM
That was such an excellent takedown, what you would expect coming from uri field-cop Geon.
KSKalways
September 20, 2020 at 8:07 PM
Hilarious
pickleddragon
September 20, 2020 at 10:18 AM
Actually, I thought WTH’s line delivery was not the best – it felt like he was reading a script – unless the posturing was deliberate and in character. But yeah, overall, that back and forth was very well done!
dramalover4ever
September 20, 2020 at 6:53 PM
It seems that he is invested in creating a shit storm in order to preserve the status quo and cover up the other stuff (whatever it is).
strawberry
September 20, 2020 at 9:44 AM
Yes! This episode makes me smile so much, which is odd since it’s still full of tense moments. haha Gosh, I’m sad we’re at the home stretch now. We still need more SM/YJ moments!
pickleddragon
September 20, 2020 at 10:16 AM
So right about smiling amidst tension – that’s what HSM’s smile felt like – it was a ray of sunshine in a taut episode. I was very happy with the SM-YJ scenes here. Their friendship is *goals*, as they say.
dramalover4ever
September 20, 2020 at 7:02 PM
Has anyone considered that all of this is a storm in a tea cup and nothing has happened at all except plotting for advantage (and the kidnapping of DJ)? This may be completely off the wall, but have you considered the possibility that there are no murders at all? That the drownings were drownings, that the suicide was a suicide, that the heart attack was a heart attack. In fact what we see is maneuvering for advantage in a fog of misdirection, and attempts by the police and prosecution to frame each other on the basis of their paranoid suspicions and attempts at outguessing each other.
The big question though is what has happened to Dong-jae? I’m starting to wonder if that vile burgeoning sociopath High School student has kidnapped him out of malevolence (but then we saw the reflection of the police watch??) On the other hand Sec Park is v suspicious. Who is he really working for?
pickleddragon
September 20, 2020 at 11:09 PM
interesting theory! not considered it. although the high school student – SDJ connection has crossed my mind, for otherwise that case/conversation was a very random insert in the earlier episode. the kidnapper is shown to be a rich person, with fancy musical instruments, etc., so rich high school brat doing the kidnapping is not impossible.
SeeSamME
September 21, 2020 at 2:28 AM
Yes, I have started to think there might not be a murderer. Possibly, an accomplice who knows something about a crime, could be bullying or drug dealing but choose to stay silent. A blinking eye symbol in the intro could mean witnessing a crime but choose to close their eyes. Unlike S1, the catchphrase is every suspect has a motive cos there was a murder. Tragedy happened because someone chose to turn a blind eye (leader Baek’s silence to the bullying of officer Song)
pickleddragon
September 21, 2020 at 5:02 AM
yeah the tagline is also something similar, right? everyone who remains silent is guilty = turning a blind eye? I usually end up ff-ing the intro – must go back and check it out!
Maq
September 20, 2020 at 10:05 AM
I think the mastermind this season is Director Park Sang-mu. I’m getting evil villain vibes from him.
Maq
September 20, 2020 at 10:07 AM
Also, I’m still not convinced the Sergeant wasn’t murdered. Too much doesn’t add up. Right now, my theory is that the newbie at their police station might’ve been the killer — although I have no good evidence for this theory!
LT is Irresistibly Indifferent and reminded of the slow march of death
September 20, 2020 at 8:45 PM
That was my theory too, although if Sargeant Song did in fact commit suicide then I’m not seeing the motive anymore.
pickleddragon
September 20, 2020 at 11:11 PM
different character, but also agree that the suicide is still not convincing. Unless show wants to leave the cops’ transgressions as abetment to suicide (which would also be punishable).
LT is Irresistibly Indifferent and reminded of the slow march of death
September 20, 2020 at 8:45 PM
Sorry, I just realised you’re talking about a different character. Ignore me.
bewitched
September 20, 2020 at 11:29 PM
Ikr, and it’s weird that the whole team was shown to feel regret because of the bribes. Did they not feel a tiny bit of remorse for the bullying which triggered the supposed suicide? As bad as receiving bribe is, it’s not costing you human life. I sense crooked moral compass here.
pickleddragon
September 20, 2020 at 10:15 AM
He’s been shady from the start! I agree. But no one is entirely above suspicion yet. WTH and CB are still dodgy. I don’t know what mega plan they have up their sleeve. Chairwoman Lee is also pretty scheming. Who knows. At this point, I’m not even clear on what the exact crime is. :p I’m just enjoying the complexity of the ride and the tight writing. There’s never a loose plot line with LSY, and everything is going to tie together eventually.
Maq
September 20, 2020 at 10:41 AM
I think the plotting is great as well!
The one thing I don’t want is a lame attempt to pin all of this on Chairwoman Lee’s brother or father. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that the writer will not go for an easy solution like this.
For me, the most suspicious people right now are Park Sang-mu and Seo Dong-jae’s wife. The two of them seem to have secrets and ulterior motives. (Who knows, Park Sang-mu might be the father of Seo Dong-jae’s children! LMAO)
pickleddragon
September 20, 2020 at 11:13 PM
haha the fathering seems far out, although. all is definitely not rosy on the marriage front. that said, I thought it strange that the wife should put on such a show just for the sake of keeping up appearances. she’s definitely fishy, but for other reasons.
I have been theorizing that the Lee brother is behind a lot of this, and the father is definitely going to come back into the story at some point, but how and when I don’t know.
larelle79
September 20, 2020 at 1:10 PM
Park is a younger version of the late Prosecutor Lee. He and Mrs Lee mesh so well and their relationship reminds me of Season 1 with her husband.
Maq
September 20, 2020 at 5:32 PM
I at first thought they were dating or something. They do get along really well. However, he gives me snake vibes and I definitely think he’s involved in some sinister in whatever is going on here.
larelle79
September 20, 2020 at 6:07 PM
Just like her husband.
The woman has a type. 😄
pickleddragon
September 20, 2020 at 11:14 PM
I didn’t get dating / romantic vibes at all from the start. More like a creepy symbiotic relationship.
PYC
September 22, 2020 at 9:38 AM
Ep 12 is a masterclass of sublime scriptwriting. Each segment is worth a thesis and there are so many of them. A second watch may not be enough.
pickleddragon
September 22, 2020 at 9:26 PM
I completely agree! I mentioned elsewhere that I thought this was the best single stand-alone episode in a drama I have seen in a long long time. So much to learn from this one hour alone.
pickleddragon
September 15, 2020 at 6:06 AM
Even as Do you Like Brahms? is on almost everyone’s watchlist here on DB, one thing that has struck me is the fact that I’m using a Korean drama to learn about and appreciate Western classical music – the anomaly is not lost on me. (To be fair, though, I did also thoroughly enjoy the first season of Mozart in the Jungle, which is the other example I can think of of a drama that has western classical music as its central theme.)
Even earlier, I have wondered why some of the best contemporary exponents of the form are not necessarily – ethnically, at least, to use a politically sensitive term – from countries where the music was created: names that immediately come to mind are Yo-yo Ma, Lang Lang, Vanessa Mae. The one reason why that is the case I can think of is – migrant families seeking validation in western societies through a display of virtuosity in their music, combined with tiger parenting practices, will inevitably churn out geniuses like this. This is besides straightforward exposure to western classical music in the colonial era (which there are some fascinating examples of in Indian classical music too!). I’m sure there are more complex reasons than this, though.
Appropriately enough, along comes this article by Alex Ross in The New Yorker earlier today on the whiteness of classical music, and how that is and/or needs to change. This para stood out:
“At bottom, the entire music-education system rests upon the Schenkerian assumption that the Western tonality, with its major-minor harmony and its equal-tempered scale, is the master language. Vast tracts of the world’s music, from West African talking drums to Indonesian gamelan, fall outside that system, and African-American traditions have played in its interstices.”
I would love to hear the thoughts of fellow beanies on this, including on if this widening net of performers has led to the “canon” being redefined, or reconstructed even, and if so, how?
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/09/21/black-scholars-confront-white-supremacy-in-classical-music
pickleddragon
September 13, 2020 at 10:27 PM
Maybe it\’s me just being a fan, but the editing in FOS2 is far superior to FOS1. The transitions, especially! And this show is a good example of how and when to use flashbacks (unlike Nobody Knows).
LT is Irresistibly Indifferent and reminded of the slow march of death
September 13, 2020 at 10:41 PM
Yes to all that.
I love Nobody Knows as an entire product but its overuse of flashbacks to fill episodes was a pain.
pickleddragon
September 13, 2020 at 11:10 PM
Yup – NK didn’t need the flashbacks, but in FOS2, I feel they are actually needed, because it’s so much complex a story, with many more characters and subplots. The flashbacks are also being used with care and only when necessary. Anyway, I’m loving this show dearly, even with all its – sometimes incomprehensible – layers.
Eazal
September 14, 2020 at 6:33 AM
It is. I have to say that the editing and the cinematography in S1 were not up the drama, IMO. S2 is far better.
I haven’t watched Nobody knows, but planning to do it.
pickleddragon
September 6, 2020 at 5:10 AM
For @azzo1 and SNG: wishing you all the happiness in the world together.
@ally-le As a Melomance fan, this is my pick! It’s not k-pop or from an OST, but I. think. the song meets your criteria 🙂
Ally
September 6, 2020 at 6:24 AM
I love melomance too! I have another song by them I’ll suggest!
pickleddragon
September 6, 2020 at 6:28 AM
ooh looking forward to your suggestion! I’m a little obsessed with their sound, actually :p And I’d have picked an entire concert if I could (and all the songs met your criteria!) 😀
melovestage
September 6, 2020 at 8:13 AM
Omg! I was thinking of recommending some MeloMance songs too! But got held back as I haven’t really read the lyrics if it’s appropriate for a wedding
melovestage
September 6, 2020 at 8:14 AM
Also, isn’t this from an OST? Or at least played in a drama? I think it was BTIOFL
Ally
September 6, 2020 at 9:45 AM
Doesn’t matter about if the song is appropriate for a wedding! Some fun songs are fine too! Something upbeat! There’s dancing at weddings, right?
pickleddragon
September 7, 2020 at 5:10 AM
You’re right! Melomance appears in BTIOFL singing this as buskers or something: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Qd23bXmdo
(it’s a show I haven’t paid much attention to!, so I missed the reference :D)
I actually also really like the other Melomance song from BTIOFL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3OzE2w64X4
(which started me off on this k-music/ kdrama craze actually!)
I think Ally has linked to this already on her fanwall.
pickleddragon
September 2, 2020 at 9:02 PM
However intrinsically beautiful the piece is, in the minds of an Indian viewer, Schumann’s Träumerei will forever be associated with this men’s clothing fabric brand, which has the (most awfully) cheesiest of taglines, “The Complete Man”. As a result, the first two episodes of “Do you like Brahms” felt like one long PPL.
What next? Kim Min-Jae as brand ambassador?
Maq
September 2, 2020 at 9:04 PM
LOL!
bbstl 🧹
September 3, 2020 at 7:53 PM
Oh my flaming god, I couldn’t believe how there is always another one 😲 Hilarious!
pickleddragon
August 31, 2020 at 12:32 AM
FOS2 is all about manipulation – whether it is Choi Bit and Woo Tae Ha trying to manipulate their hoobaes, or whether it’s Lee Yoon-jae manipulating the Sungmoon CEO (the opening seconds of That Scene gave me JBL feels, though), or whether it is Weasel desperately trying his hardest to manipulate anyone or anything that comes his way, or whether it’s Lee Soo-yeon – showing off her craft – manipulating the audience with that cliffhanger of an ending in ep 6.
I’m in deep here, and loving it (even if my avatar doesn’t seem to be – her sweater’s cute, though!)
Cloggie
August 31, 2020 at 2:30 AM
I got JBL whiplash because of that scene as well!
Eazal
August 31, 2020 at 7:29 AM
Me too!!
Eazal
August 31, 2020 at 7:36 AM
It’s all about trust.
I had a very hard time watching Yeojin struggling.
I don’t like Choi Bit or WTH. They are up to nothing good although they keep speaking about the organization greater good, while they are only defending their positions.
It was heartbreaking hearing Yeojin confession that you can’t stop crime: you get one criminal and two pop out the minute after. It’s just like a gigantic Hydra of Lerna.
I hate to see our favourite couple struggling this much, both are exhausted. Where is my enthusiastic Yeojin? Even ShiMok noticed… you haven’t been drawing lately…
pickleddragon
August 31, 2020 at 10:03 AM
Hmm. I don’t dislike any of the characters yet, especially CB and WTH – they are still in the grey territory, I feel. They are in power, and also powerbrokers, and doing everything to secure their own positions and their legacy. I am seeing their manipulations in that context, which makes it all very real. But well said about Yeo-jin – she’s the manifestation of the disillusioned idealist. So is Shi-mok, of course, but he doesn’t show the emotional range that she does.
In that sense, they are *all* everyman. Whether it is in the self-preserving machinations of the bosses, or the naïveté of the hoobaes, we have all been (or will be) there at some point in our lives. The show is holding up a mirror, and asking us to decide where we want to be, for ourselves. I love it! It’s demanding so much introspection from all of us.
Eazal
August 31, 2020 at 10:33 AM
Exactly. When Choi Bit tells YeoJin that one day you can sit in this chair, I could totally feel how YeoJin was not motivated at all to take that seat.
She knows (as I know) that if you sit there you will have to sell many things, because even if you want when you are in a position of power (little, middle, big, it doesn’t matter) there are certain things you have to do or do not, whether you like it or not.
I know because I’ve been there. I had for some years that power (I was a team leader) and I suffered so much, because I couldn’t do for my people what I wanted, and I couldn’t be the boss I would have wanted to be. I’ve always complained about bosses looking the other side, but even if I tried hard, there were things I could not change and HAD to look the other side, and it was killing me. So the minute I was told there would be a restructuring and I would be demoted, that was one of the happiest days of my working life.
And Yeojin knows, like I know, that taking that seat would not change things, but only change her.
pickleddragon
September 1, 2020 at 6:56 AM
So well said! That scene also made me wonder what Yeo-jin’s long game actually is (and Shi-mok’s as well). Do they want to stay in this system, or are they going to be too disillusioned to want to remain in it? Like you, will Yeo-jin be happy when she goes back to her beat-cop life with her buddies?, or will she regret having lost out on the opportunity to take control and bring about the changes she knows the system needs. I’d love if the show actually answers these questions.
SeeSamME
August 31, 2020 at 4:56 PM
Because of her nature, YJ absorbs things more emotionally and personally. Constant fight of crime and corruptions is taking its toll on them. We all experience time when we feel lost and unsure about our career or life in general. The best thing about SM-YJ friendship is they are each other anchor to help them to stay true to their beliefs.
When CB said to YJ “ you have no ideas how you are dragged into thing” I really feel for her. There often times when we feel obliged to do certain things either for our company, group or even friends as we are all part of the collectivism, more so for CB in a male domination field.
pickleddragon
September 1, 2020 at 6:59 AM
So true! Where is the line between individual agency / free will, and collective / circumstantial compulsion? The CB-YJ dialogue highlights this dilemma well.
That friendship between SM and YJ is written so well, and so subtle but beautiful. I wish LSY sticks to friendships – it’s her strongest suit when it comes to writing relationships that I have seen so far
pickleddragon
August 29, 2020 at 12:49 AM
After some hard-selling by Beanies, and desperately needing more of Lee Soo-yeon (what am I going to do now?), I finally finished bingeing Life. It is definitely nothing close to LSY’s best, i.e., Stranger, and as @eazal puts it, nothing really happens in the show, it still has its charm. Some random observations from my watch follow (One or two Spoilers Alert) .
About the performances:
— exponentially upped my appreciation for the senior actors in kdramaland – Yum Hye-Ran (Secretary Kang! – gold performance), Yoo Jae-Myung (he’s done so many rubbish shows, but he’s *such* a great character actor), Lee Sang-hee, Kim Won-Hae (hope he’s recovering fast!)…
— Of the younger lot, Lee Kyu-hyung and Tae In-ho stood out.
— Of course our hero Cho Seung-Woo can do no wrong in my eyes. I’d love to see CSW in a slice of life one day, instead of his forever grim poker-faced characters.
— I still love Won Jin-ah’s voice: deep, rich, and clear. That. is her biggest strength, and I hope she uses it well. But she has yet to best her role in Just Between Lovers. This was not it. Maybe she’s a director’s actor, and needs to find the right guidance.
— Lee Dong Wook as “Greek God” had me in splits throughout – well, erm, he is that, but sadly, maybe mainly that in this show. I’m not complaining. Visual relief is always important.
— I hooted silently when Lee Joon Hyuk came on screen in a blink and miss scene. It was just the other day I had mentioned that it was a shame he wasn’t in this drama considering how many actors overlapped with Stranger, and voila.
About the writing and storytelling:
— the friendships are written/performed so well! They shine in comparison with the subtle-but-oh-not-so-subtle romance. I think LSY should stick to writing good friendships (cue reference, Stranger 2: please don’t mess it up).
— the storytelling style pushes a lot of standard dramaland boundaries: Things were not always explained well. A lot of sub-text was left for the audience to decipher. There were no clear resolutions. A lot of ambiguity remained right till the end, including on critical character motivations (or at least I felt so).
— this is what I respect LSY for – she doesn’t spoonfeed, and doesn’t treat audience as stupid. Her settings are also very real, and although dramatic license is employed often, there is enough to make you feel like this is familiar stuff, and that you could have been a part of this story yourself.
About other stuff:
— the BGM was louder and more prominent than it needed to be.
— the pacing was off in many many places. It was very slow and involved a lot of unnecessary shots of people staring into blank space.
— BUT BUT BUT the mid-length non-verbal ocean scene in the end between the Brothers Ye was so beautiful, and gave closure to a lot of unanswered questions (without actually answering them). This was one of the finest moments of the show overall, and I’m glad I stayed the course.
— My favourite line came at the end, from the character played by Tae In-ho, and. the context in which he said (after a career in a place he didn’t. like, with few friends left in the world, and no idea where to go next), “How is it that there’s nothing I want to do?”. That moment captured a lot of things, which felt very personal for me.
Overall, Life is definitely up there among the top – maybe 20 – kdramas I have watched. I truly appreciate that LSY is doing so much to write about serious issues that most folks in dramaland would avoid. I hope she keeps at it! Her oeuvre can only go from strength to strength at this rate.
Eazal
August 29, 2020 at 1:07 AM
I’m so glad you liked it. I’ve already told you.
Yes to all you say, my most favorite character was, as I have stated many times, Secretary Kang (it’s funny because I watched this show after watching Lawless Lawyer in which Yum Hye Ran’s character was so stereotypical…).
I like how LSY writes about real women. I’m not talking about strong, leading or extraordinary women, but about real women: like YeoJin in Stranger or all the female characters in Life. You didn’t mention Moon So Ri, and her Dr. Oh is just amazing. I loved how it was so clear on how a woman has to deal in man’s world to get to the top without one single explanation.
I also agree about Tae In Ho. Yes, yes, yes… he’s also one of my weakness.
And I didn’t want to sp*il you on LHJ cameo, because I almost fell off my couch when I saw him, hehe. That scene made me want a second season with him as the Hospital Director.
In the end, nothing really happened: it is just Life.
pickleddragon
August 29, 2020 at 4:57 AM
You’re right about the women in LSY’s writing – thank heavens for that. There’s no artificial coyness or any such rubbish in her depictions. I wish she would write more women in, though!!
All her shows have just a handful of women – the stories are still very much about the men.
And ah Moon So-ri – yeah, I think in my editing back and forth, her name got deleted! she was awesome as Dr Oh – suitably ambiguous – powerful – professional – ambitious – that scene with the Restructuring team where she starts with kicking the door open was some serious stuff!
Tae In-ho!! So underused in dramaland, IMO. I really wanted to see more of him in JBL too!
Thank you for not spoiling LJH for me – it was such a whistle-inducing surprise! I totally agree that this was beautifully set up for a season 2. Maybe Gu Seung-ho could be hired by the doctors to head the independent foundation they set up to buy Sankook out, and we could have a CSW-LJH face off here!! Ah, wishful thinking…
wapz
August 29, 2020 at 4:02 AM
Ljfe totally lives upto its name and I’ll call it more of a slice of life and workplace politics drama than a medical one. That scene with the Ye brothers was amazing and I was a crying mess when I saw it. I have special apprecaition fr writers who include characters who are differently abled (sorry if I’m using the wrong term), both Life and JBL had characters who were human beyond a disability. LKH has done very sad roles but Life was most heart wrenching he just wanted to be considered and treated like a normal human being like everyone else. But I stuck through Life because of Gu Seung Ho. He was a very complex gray character and a typical “business man” but thay didn’t mean that he’ll side with the wrong. Like the characters the audience was equally in the dark about him, is he good? Is he bad? And our opinion about him changed with the characters. Dr Oh was another kind of gray character in Life, but for the admirable strong woman she is, everyone had a good view about her.
pickleddragon
August 29, 2020 at 5:08 AM
Agree that this is a workplace drama and not really a medical drama. But my grouse about not seeing enough of CSW’s smile remains 🙂 which is why I said I’d like to seem him as a regular guy in a plain ole’ slice of life. He was too much of the grey-hearted businessman here for me.
So right about the grayness of the characterization – that’s what I especially loved about the writing – there’s two sides to everyone. There were times I felt that Ye Seon-woo was taking advantage of others, or Lee Bun-ho was a scheming director, and many characters, like Glutton and Dr Oh, were unreadable at most times. This is what made it all so real and felt close to home in mimicking people around us.
CSW was terrific as GSH, making the character greyer than ash – even until the end, I wasn’t sure if I sided with or against him, just like I felt the doctors couldn’t make up their minds either. I came for Lee Soo-Yeon, but CSW was also definitely the second major draw for me. Like I said, I’m very biased – he’s a near perfect actor in my opinion. 😀
And I hear you about including characters who are specially abled (I am also not sure of what the appropriate term would be): Without becoming moralistic or taking the high ground, this show said so much about what life is like if you are in such a situation – whether it is the daily humdrum of your life, or emotional and mental state, or the extent to which you can have a full-blown professional career, and how your ambitions (professional, social, emotional) get curtailed. It was very sensitively and respectfully done. On this metric alone, I don’t think I have seen a better show. JBL also did a good job (and it is one of all time favourite shows), but I thought this drama did an even better job.
asterell
August 29, 2020 at 7:06 AM
Won Jin-ah certainly felt like the weak link to me, if only because she was playing a character 10 years her senior, so she didn’t carry the weariness that the others naturally possessed about life (ha, ha). Maybe that was the point of her character, but her youthful face compounded by her small frame didn’t exactly help with the (unnecessary) love-line with CSW. I maaaybe get why he’d be initially drawn to her at least platonically – she gave him a chance instead of just writing him off as a businessman. I don’t get why she’d be romantically pulled towards him, and I felt zero chemistry between the two to justify his character coming for her in the final scene.
There’s a chance I just dislike her character too – I especially disliked how pity was kind of the only emotion that No-eul expressed towards Sun-woo. I can’t tell if it was a directorial choice, but Won Jin-ah/No-eul looked way too stunted for a noona hearing the confession from a dongseng, and looked traumatized more than anything else. In fact, she only looked traumatized, which puzzled me given the supposed emotional wisdom/maturity she showed CSW’s character. To me, it was pretty damning that the first thing she saw were his legs and the wheelchair before meeting his gaze, and I thought the show kind of let her off too easy for it.
One other thing that I thought was forced was Sun-woo’s health complications, like jeez give this guy a break! I just don’t get why we needed to have this additional side plot when the resolution (theatre scene) didn’t require it. I thought there was enough material to work with already, and I would have preferred if the drama more fully explored Sun-woo’s feelings of self worth instead of inducing angst by giving him only 10-15 years to live and a last minute guilt trip over his childhood accident. That said, I would have loved to have seen CSW’s character help Sun-woo in his character growth, and I really found their interaction outside No-eul’s apartment fascinating – Seung-hyo’s result oriented/no-nonsense perspective could have breathed a lot into a character weighed to the ground by self-pity.
Overall, I have to agree that for most of the drama, nothing really happened, but I was still really absorbed. Yoo Jae-myung had one or two too many monologues/speeches for my tastes, but I don’t blame them for trying recreate the magic in FoS. I loved seeing Dr. Oh take charge, and I thought Jin-woo’s characterization that her only flaw is that she views herself as the standard was spot-on, and we could see that her motivations/actions were really consistent through the lens of this characterization throughout the drama. Really glad to have watched.
pickleddragon
August 29, 2020 at 9:49 PM
Totally on-point observations about Won Jin-ah’s No-eul. I also felt there was zero chemistry. But I don’t know if it was about the casting alone, but also about the writing – I did not find the other romantic arc particularly well-done either (Jin-woo and the reporter). I also thought LDW was as much of a weak link as WJA.
There were TONS of monologues!! And yes they got a tedious. I worry that Stranger 2 might go down the same path – if not monologues, but interminably long and complex dialogues between two people, with no end or goal in sight – that is better for a written text, but doesn’t always translate well into performance.
asterell
August 30, 2020 at 5:22 AM
The initial romance with the reporter was important only to show that there was nothing going on with No-eul. I was surprised they took it to the end.
Strangely, the only thought I had while watching Lee Dong-wook’s farewell to imaginary Sun-woo/himself was “wow, Jo In-sung is a better actor than I thought”, because I couldn’t help not compare it to that scene in It’s Okay that’s Love (beginning of ep 16). While LDW’s self confession fell very, very flat to me, I remember Jo In-sung’s was much more moving. It could be directorial – Jo In-sung did get a close-up while LDW was in a public space, but I thought LDW’s execution was poor overall. I didn’t think too much of his performance otherwise, but I may be giving Greek god who’s a doofus around girls too much of a pass.
pickleddragon
August 31, 2020 at 12:35 AM
“It’s Okay” is a show I did NOT like at all – disliked both the leads, the story, the execution, everything. I ff-ed through it to understand what the hype was about and didn’t get it still. I’m mighty glad that LSY did not pick LDW for Stranger 2 – he has a long way to go to fix his acting chops.
pickleddragon
August 29, 2020 at 9:54 PM
And oh yeah, the dynamic between Seung-ho and Seon-woo could have been better explored. That’s what I meant when I said the writer does non-romantic relationships well, and should focus on those. All the scenes between those two were superb – it also helps that they are generally outstanding actors.
The additional health complication was just wasted time, I agree, and caused unnecessary drama angst. There was enough otherwise in Seon-woo’s character to discuss the challenges of living normally when life throws you a curveball, and those parts were actually well done. Like the conversation between the brothers, when Jin-woo tells his brother he is a role model, and he replies that he doesn’t want to be one – I have had this exact same conversation with a close friend who was in a similar situation, which caused me to revisit my position on this issue fundamentally. That really hit home.
dramalover4ever
August 29, 2020 at 5:06 PM
The ocean scene will be forever in my memory as one of the most beautiful moments in drama land. I loved every minute of Life.
The debates about the identity and role of the institution resonated strongly with debates about universities as they became corporatised and transformed into profit making organisations. There could not have been a resolution to this debate at the time Life was made. The process has been like an unstoppable juggernaut.
Ironically, with COVID-19, it’s all changed again, at least where I am, and the whole profit-making venture has fallen over. It would have been, and will continue to be, laudable and right if hospitals put healing people first and Universities were about the pursuit of knowledge and truth, but all of that seemed impossibly naive in the era of neo-liberalism.
In Life and Stranger2, Lee Soo-yeon brilliantly chooses contemporary hot spots and bravely explores what’s at stake. Best and most pleasurable viewing ever.
pickleddragon
August 29, 2020 at 9:59 PM
Yes! to the ocean scene. From start to finish, it was breathtakingly beautiful and so so appropriate in terms of its placement in the story. It wasn’t a random, oh lets give some visual relief, kind of scene. It had meaning and really pushed the story forward, or as in this case, gave closure.
“Contemporary hot spots” – brave is the word to use for LSY indeed! This is also why I drew comparisons with The Wire, because I see a similar attempt in her work to question the evolution of institutions and speculate on whether we truly understand our priorities or not, as human beings. I respect and admire her immensely for this, and I do hope she keeps this a running motif through her work, because for all the fluff on TV out there, we desperately need to have these kinds of conversations too!
dramalover4ever
August 30, 2020 at 12:31 AM
I agree, these are conversations we need to have. I haven’t seen The Wire. I’ve just been reading about the outcome of the actual police vs prosecution debate in Korea and discovered how momentous it was. People demonstrated in the streets at the prosecution-led attack on the Justice Minister who initiated the attempt to reform the checks and balances between the two. She has written right into this in Stranger 2, and Koreans would not miss the connection. It all leads straight to the President and his pledge to bring more fairness to the country when he was elected. What actually happened was the system of privilege was even further exposed in the accusations against the progressive Justice Minister, Cho kuk. It’s truly the stuff of dramas. Clearly an opportunity she could not resist and has bravely taken on.
pickleddragon
August 31, 2020 at 12:38 AM
oh do watch The Wire if you get the chance – it’s a show that stays in your head for a long long time.
I love the real-to-reel transition you describe, and actually even envy the writer being able to do that (while also admiring her bravery) for not everywhere can you write (or dare to write) so openly. Do share links if you have recommendations on the subject. I will be only to happy to read.
dramalover4ever
August 31, 2020 at 1:17 AM
The representation of the Assemblyman in the last episode of FOS appears to make a significant departure from the Justice Minister who actually fell prey to the prosecution in SK. My impression is that the actual Minister had been a hero of the Left and may still be for some. https://thediplomat.com/2019/10/south-koreas-cho-kuk-saga-ends/
But opinions have actually fractured the Left too:
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/art/2020/08/142_295124.html
The current episodes of FOS about trying to control the Assemblyman. In real life, it looks as if the prosecutors went for him like attaching sharks. The repercussions go all the way to the top and also erode the President’s promise to make a fairer Korea.
pickleddragon
August 31, 2020 at 1:56 AM
Thank you! This gives an interesting perspective to the storytelling. I wonder if, as in S1, this will take it all the way to the Blue House too – gunning directly for the President.
dramalover4ever
August 31, 2020 at 3:25 AM
I wonder. I can’t see how she can resist.