@kodra Please forgive me for cluttering your fan wall– I’ll be happy to delete this comment. But I wanted to respond to your comment on Blood-Free. First, let me say that I know a lot about this issue. Both sides of my family are farmers, my wife and and sister-in-law work in biotechnology in closely related fields, I taught environmental history for two decades, and I have published fairly extensively on agricultural history. Also, I eat meat, although I prefer to buy from farmers I know rather than generic mass produced meat, and I am a fan of technology and capitalism, IF restrained by reasonable regulation. (I realize this is where you and I differ politically) But just to be clear, I am not speaking based on any sort of radical politics. I am not anti-farmer, anti-capitalist, anti-technology.
I can tell you, in response to your comment. you are flat out wrong on many points. You are welcome to your opinions, but you simply know less than I do. I could send you citation after citation, but in the end, who cares? Because the main point you are wrong about is that this is somehow a pressing issue apart from this particular kdrama! We will not be eating the kind of cultured meat that this kdrama proposes in our lifetime. We could have the option of eating fake meat from say, peas, but that’s a vastly different proposition.
In any case, what is a pressing issue in U.S. agriculture, is the corporate consolidation of food production, which pushes independent farmers out of business, exploits immigrant workers in brutal conditions, especially slaughterhouses (how can you ignore the horrible work and health conditions in slaughterhouses!) and treats animals as mass produced widgets, with Confined Area Feeding Operations housing thousands of animals in unsanitary conditions, 18,000 cow dairy farms (!) and manure sewerage from thousands of pig farms flooding waterways. (There are so many environment issues apart from climate change that you totally ignore! )
This kind of massive scale (and that’s the point, the massive scale, not the capitalist agriculture or the technology) given non-human influenced biology, not only results in avian flu pandemics requiring the slaughter of millions of chickens! but has also resulted in avian flu being transferred to cows, but actually risks human consumer health. And that is a fact, not an opinion.
I am not sure why you wrought up about cultured meat, which again, I assure, will not happen on the scale this drama proposes, so you don’t have to worry about it. But if it was possible, then it would be beneficial in every way I suggested, because it would eliminate the bulk of the problems with massive scale, corporate dominated, industrial domestic animal slaughter. But that’s all I have to say about it. This is a kdrama site, after all!
Again, let me know if you want me to delete this comment–it isn’t relevant to QOT, so I apologize for that!
Please don’t delete your comment and thanks for your response. I beg that you will forgive me for writing you later, the weekends are very busy for me to write longer messages on top of seeing all the hot dramas I am watching right now. I will get back to you Monday or Tuesday with a response when time allows me to frame it better. It is an important subject for me so I welcome and enjoy the discussion.
Sorry for the late reply, RL and Kdrama took over my time. It will be a long one, so brace yourself.
Of course I don’t know as much as you do but all my comments are based on research papers also. The problem with research papers in the last years in science is that you will find anything that can support your claim. It’s just of matter if you chose to ignore the other side, much like with news today. Although I have not worked in bio-technology, I can read and make a judgement to the validity of a research paper. I would like to know where do you think I am wrong because I am really interested to know. About research papers and the hand some private companies have in it I will give you an example from my profession. Arestin is a local antibiotic that tried and failed for a long time to succeed in its trials. After they tweaked the patient pool they finally got some minimal results and got approved. Over 20 or years ago my school and the periodontal association were very skeptical of the efficacy of such local antibiotics because the benefits are so minimal and the body response takes care of it on its own. The periodontal association and the ADA still do not fully recommend it as standard of care although it is pushed as such by many in these dental corporate chains. I personally was pushed out from one when I raised my concern a few years ago. So I take any such research papers with a lot of skepticism. I know what I learned 30 some years ago, I have the experience during those years from actual patients and when I see the changes made in the last years I question everything.
” and I am a fan of technology and capitalism, IF restrained by reasonable regulation”
I don’t think we are that different because I stand exactly for the same things. Where we differ is I think you still believe that it is possible or that the ones that are pushing your views are better people and if they would continue to have the power and push for your believs the world would be better. Of course I want regulations that make sense. Of course I want capitalism. Capitalism without regulations is fascism, which is what I believe we have now. That process started slowly when they changed the media regulations in the 70’s I believe and resulted in what we have now where monopolies rule in this country in media and in every other industry, including agriculture. And instead of paying taxes they diverse the money in these foundations that support the ONG’s that push further their agendas. After their success here they were not satisfied, they want to control on the global level. Where you live that might not be evident, but in my country and probably in SK and Japan also, is clear. There was a campaign a few years back where they placed this prosecutor that would charge all the local “chabeols” of corruption while overlooking the gross foreign corporate ones. All with a media campaign that we are the most corrupt, the most inefficient and with the slogan “we want a countr
@hacja
…..
“we want a country like the western ones”. They hit at everything: our history, our patriotism, our tradition. And now they rule, we are just vassals as Joseon was to Ming or Qing. Even in politics there is a monopoly because I don’t buy the theater they are selling to us, that really is meant to keep us distracted, divided and fighting while they push again their agendas. I started to be a Democrat in the Bush era, even volunteered for Kerry (Kerry that now placed his daughter as his successor in his climate change crusade) I went and saw Gore’s movie and believed in the future. Yes, we can change… But now, when I see all of them united with the Bushies and the Cheneys it gives me such pure disgust. All united against the orange man, but actually against us, another one in cahoots with them or maybe let to be in order to be used against the people that are not happy with their policies. Because of him they got away with a lot because the media said so. The Rusia thing was used to accept everything they are doing now in Ukraine ( knowing that in 2015ish McCain with Graham and Nulen were talking in Ukraine, pledging to support them no matter what, after they manufactured the maidan; even now Graham going there and telling them to drop the age on the boys they call into war). By the way, nobody talks about healthcare or student loans anymore, right? The January 6 to never ever think to revolt against them. The control of “misinformation” by dismissing anything that doesn’t come from them and their controlled media. And that transpired into people in RL, look what I have been called here just because I went against what their media tells them. Just use the word “Qanon” and they are done, I have become the “freak” that is meant to be dismissed and canceled. It doesn’t matter that all that media is either bought or 100% controlled as the NPR journalist stated. It doesn’t matter that the media is pushing propaganda and not stating facts because nobody works there that can challenge them, as the same NPR journalist stated. And you know what is really tragic, that people continue to support one of these two or believe that they can and will do something. We have a president now that can barely function that was chosen because of it and because the alternative was just as bad. This is so sad and it shows the level of corruption in this country. If I didn’t see this movie already in my country, where we had to choose between two former communists that were in power during the communist era in a so called new democracy, it would not have been so tragic. So no, I do not believe that true capitalism with reasonable regulations is possible at all.
I know the many problems of agriculture and meat industry have caused and I do not support them. My problem is that we are punishing the little guys, the good small farmers, with all this climate change propaganda. They are the ones we will lose after all this. They want their lands and total cont
@hacja
They want their lands and total control. I read that the 2 biggest meat packaging companies are investing in the cultured meat industry, among the biggest polluters in the world, the crazy billioners. My belief is even if and when it will be possible it will be controlled by the same people. And just as they did in the agriculture and meat industry, they will do the same or even worse because we will have no alternative by that time. If you go to the site of the company that made the first of such cultured burger, they present their scientists as “the next farmers”. Even in this drama, the little farmers are portrayed the evil ones, capable of even killing. Because of climate change, they impose such “regulations” and “laws” that make it very hard for the little ones to survive while the biggest ones are left alone to consolidate and get bigger. That is why we see them throwing manure at them in Europe, because they feel the pressure against their livelehood. So no, I don’t buy the climate change agenda when I see that nothing is done in other areas. We still let coca-cola and Pepsi sell their product in plastic bottles. We push for wars to manufacture more weapons. We bomb underwater gas lines. Everything is for oil, even in Gaza where they found oil in their sea. Even in Rusia, where they want it to cripple and go and steal their oil. Like they tried in Syria, where they still get oil from a part of the country like pirates. We haven’t stopped from overproducing and selling every crap under the world. I haven’t seen the billioners that are preaching this selling their waterfront properties but I have seen them buy more. Musk is shooting rackets into space like crazy lately. And recycling? Sure, we just send it in containers in other poor countries after China refused it a few years ago. It’s almost like the double-speach used in 1984, they all say something but are saying and doing the opposite at the same time. It sounds nice, people buy it, I mean who doesn’t want to look virtuous and supporting good ideas, but it doesn’t hold water when you look at it from afar. So no, I am not going to believe the rich billioners through their paid government, their paid media and their paid research papers and their paid teachers and scientists. Specially when they all agree in their message and their actions.
So why I am against the cultured meat besides the above reasons? Because I don’t believe in it when it is introduced as a solution to the climate change propaganda. That is bullshit (sorry about the word, I have become quite attached to it since Stranger Things) and even the drama touched upon it in the last episode. I don’t like the fear mongering tactics they use. If it was better they would not have the need for it. If it is a better product than let the people decide, let the free market do its job like it is supposed to in a true capitalism system, without scaring them or making them guilty. We have better options to perserve the enviro
@hacja
….
We have better options to perserve the environment but we do not enforce them. If we can’t enforce them, then how we can control this one? We don’t know the long term health risks associated with it even if is done right. The fact that they agreed to sell it (although now you cannot buy it anywhere because of “production” problems) without long term trials it scares me. The fact that we don’t know if we buy GM products because they don’t label them scares me that they will not label it as such when it comes available. From the point of animal cruelty, I would agree with it but the health risks on human kind are greater in my opinion. Because we are a carnivore specie and we cannot deny that fact. It’s been done for thousands of years and I just don’t like to mess with the design or with what has been working for humans. Of course I do not agree on eating meat that has been altered or even vaccinated with the new mRNA vaccines also but that is another story. At least we still have the option to buy the meat from farms that do not use it or any of other malpractices asociated with meat production for now. Soon we won’t because it will be a monopoly. And lastly, because I am afraid that it will not be just an option at some point if they will ever figure it out (I think that they will, maybe not to the exact same conditions as meat but they don’t even need it to be to enforce it). Those rich people are crazy and they have too much power unfortunately.
About the kdrama, it did not disappoint me thus far but I have to see how it ends. I am optimistic with the latest developments. It clearly showed the motive behind her making the cultured meat and it was not for environmental reasons or animal cruelty. I think if she had the option, she would kill all cows, LOL. The use of vCJD didn’t bother me as much (although used as another scare tactic), hopefully it will shed some light on what happens when humans think they are too clever and try to trick the laws of nature. Including herself. It also mirrored the latest trend in the rich billioners and their search for immortality and their fight with time. Some just don’t know when to stop and I am afraid that this will cause the end of our society and not the climate change they are pushing. The climate change is just their way to dump the guilt and responsibilities to us while they continue to do their thing.
@kodra Well, we’ve gone a little far afield here from the cultured meat question. I’m not going to comment on other things you said; some of which I accept, others of which I don’t. There are bad things that are historically constant–human greed, drive for power, intolerance etc. but there are also good things present in every historical era as well–concern for others, drive for new knowledge and technological progress, a sense of morality and justice, etc. I have strong opinions about where those good and bad things are manifested today, but as I’ve said several times, I am very conscious that on this kdrama site very few people are interested in my opinions on these matters, so I do my best to restrain myself, although obviously, given this discussion, I’m not always successful!
To conclude, I still stand by my assertion that cultured meat is not going to happen on the scale that this show proposes. I also still stand by my point that pursuing a variety of alternatives to the concentrated, mass production meat industry is not a bad thing. People like meat around the world, and if eaten in moderation it provides necessary nutrition, so I personally think there are is nothing wrong with the market providing it to them, but if we could get a number of options out there and alleviate some of the issues with the current food system, it would be good for the environment, human health, and for animal rights–this was my assertion that started this discussion. So I guess we didn’t sway each other either way, but it was a good writing exercise–got the typing fingers limbered up!
1
0
Modal title
Modal title
Modal title
Modal title
A verification email has been sent to your new email address.
Please click the link in that email to complete the email change process.
Modal title
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,
sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna
Kodra aka Qanon something
April 18, 2024 at 5:02 AM
QOT ep 13-14 pre-release clip is good but cut too short. Oh, the pull and the “how” will linger in my mind now…
PYC
April 18, 2024 at 7:24 AM
Super sweet…
hacja
April 18, 2024 at 9:13 PM
@kodra Please forgive me for cluttering your fan wall– I’ll be happy to delete this comment. But I wanted to respond to your comment on Blood-Free. First, let me say that I know a lot about this issue. Both sides of my family are farmers, my wife and and sister-in-law work in biotechnology in closely related fields, I taught environmental history for two decades, and I have published fairly extensively on agricultural history. Also, I eat meat, although I prefer to buy from farmers I know rather than generic mass produced meat, and I am a fan of technology and capitalism, IF restrained by reasonable regulation. (I realize this is where you and I differ politically) But just to be clear, I am not speaking based on any sort of radical politics. I am not anti-farmer, anti-capitalist, anti-technology.
I can tell you, in response to your comment. you are flat out wrong on many points. You are welcome to your opinions, but you simply know less than I do. I could send you citation after citation, but in the end, who cares? Because the main point you are wrong about is that this is somehow a pressing issue apart from this particular kdrama! We will not be eating the kind of cultured meat that this kdrama proposes in our lifetime. We could have the option of eating fake meat from say, peas, but that’s a vastly different proposition.
In any case, what is a pressing issue in U.S. agriculture, is the corporate consolidation of food production, which pushes independent farmers out of business, exploits immigrant workers in brutal conditions, especially slaughterhouses (how can you ignore the horrible work and health conditions in slaughterhouses!) and treats animals as mass produced widgets, with Confined Area Feeding Operations housing thousands of animals in unsanitary conditions, 18,000 cow dairy farms (!) and manure sewerage from thousands of pig farms flooding waterways. (There are so many environment issues apart from climate change that you totally ignore! )
This kind of massive scale (and that’s the point, the massive scale, not the capitalist agriculture or the technology) given non-human influenced biology, not only results in avian flu pandemics requiring the slaughter of millions of chickens! but has also resulted in avian flu being transferred to cows, but actually risks human consumer health. And that is a fact, not an opinion.
I am not sure why you wrought up about cultured meat, which again, I assure, will not happen on the scale this drama proposes, so you don’t have to worry about it. But if it was possible, then it would be beneficial in every way I suggested, because it would eliminate the bulk of the problems with massive scale, corporate dominated, industrial domestic animal slaughter. But that’s all I have to say about it. This is a kdrama site, after all!
Again, let me know if you want me to delete this comment–it isn’t relevant to QOT, so I apologize for that!
Kodra aka Qanon something
April 20, 2024 at 2:46 AM
Please don’t delete your comment and thanks for your response. I beg that you will forgive me for writing you later, the weekends are very busy for me to write longer messages on top of seeing all the hot dramas I am watching right now. I will get back to you Monday or Tuesday with a response when time allows me to frame it better. It is an important subject for me so I welcome and enjoy the discussion.
Kodra aka Qanon something
April 25, 2024 at 9:25 AM
Sorry for the late reply, RL and Kdrama took over my time. It will be a long one, so brace yourself.
Of course I don’t know as much as you do but all my comments are based on research papers also. The problem with research papers in the last years in science is that you will find anything that can support your claim. It’s just of matter if you chose to ignore the other side, much like with news today. Although I have not worked in bio-technology, I can read and make a judgement to the validity of a research paper. I would like to know where do you think I am wrong because I am really interested to know. About research papers and the hand some private companies have in it I will give you an example from my profession. Arestin is a local antibiotic that tried and failed for a long time to succeed in its trials. After they tweaked the patient pool they finally got some minimal results and got approved. Over 20 or years ago my school and the periodontal association were very skeptical of the efficacy of such local antibiotics because the benefits are so minimal and the body response takes care of it on its own. The periodontal association and the ADA still do not fully recommend it as standard of care although it is pushed as such by many in these dental corporate chains. I personally was pushed out from one when I raised my concern a few years ago. So I take any such research papers with a lot of skepticism. I know what I learned 30 some years ago, I have the experience during those years from actual patients and when I see the changes made in the last years I question everything.
” and I am a fan of technology and capitalism, IF restrained by reasonable regulation”
I don’t think we are that different because I stand exactly for the same things. Where we differ is I think you still believe that it is possible or that the ones that are pushing your views are better people and if they would continue to have the power and push for your believs the world would be better. Of course I want regulations that make sense. Of course I want capitalism. Capitalism without regulations is fascism, which is what I believe we have now. That process started slowly when they changed the media regulations in the 70’s I believe and resulted in what we have now where monopolies rule in this country in media and in every other industry, including agriculture. And instead of paying taxes they diverse the money in these foundations that support the ONG’s that push further their agendas. After their success here they were not satisfied, they want to control on the global level. Where you live that might not be evident, but in my country and probably in SK and Japan also, is clear. There was a campaign a few years back where they placed this prosecutor that would charge all the local “chabeols” of corruption while overlooking the gross foreign corporate ones. All with a media campaign that we are the most corrupt, the most inefficient and with the slogan “we want a countr
Kodra aka Qanon something
April 25, 2024 at 9:27 AM
@hacja
…..
“we want a country like the western ones”. They hit at everything: our history, our patriotism, our tradition. And now they rule, we are just vassals as Joseon was to Ming or Qing. Even in politics there is a monopoly because I don’t buy the theater they are selling to us, that really is meant to keep us distracted, divided and fighting while they push again their agendas. I started to be a Democrat in the Bush era, even volunteered for Kerry (Kerry that now placed his daughter as his successor in his climate change crusade) I went and saw Gore’s movie and believed in the future. Yes, we can change… But now, when I see all of them united with the Bushies and the Cheneys it gives me such pure disgust. All united against the orange man, but actually against us, another one in cahoots with them or maybe let to be in order to be used against the people that are not happy with their policies. Because of him they got away with a lot because the media said so. The Rusia thing was used to accept everything they are doing now in Ukraine ( knowing that in 2015ish McCain with Graham and Nulen were talking in Ukraine, pledging to support them no matter what, after they manufactured the maidan; even now Graham going there and telling them to drop the age on the boys they call into war). By the way, nobody talks about healthcare or student loans anymore, right? The January 6 to never ever think to revolt against them. The control of “misinformation” by dismissing anything that doesn’t come from them and their controlled media. And that transpired into people in RL, look what I have been called here just because I went against what their media tells them. Just use the word “Qanon” and they are done, I have become the “freak” that is meant to be dismissed and canceled. It doesn’t matter that all that media is either bought or 100% controlled as the NPR journalist stated. It doesn’t matter that the media is pushing propaganda and not stating facts because nobody works there that can challenge them, as the same NPR journalist stated. And you know what is really tragic, that people continue to support one of these two or believe that they can and will do something. We have a president now that can barely function that was chosen because of it and because the alternative was just as bad. This is so sad and it shows the level of corruption in this country. If I didn’t see this movie already in my country, where we had to choose between two former communists that were in power during the communist era in a so called new democracy, it would not have been so tragic. So no, I do not believe that true capitalism with reasonable regulations is possible at all.
I know the many problems of agriculture and meat industry have caused and I do not support them. My problem is that we are punishing the little guys, the good small farmers, with all this climate change propaganda. They are the ones we will lose after all this. They want their lands and total cont
Kodra aka Qanon something
April 25, 2024 at 9:29 AM
@hacja
They want their lands and total control. I read that the 2 biggest meat packaging companies are investing in the cultured meat industry, among the biggest polluters in the world, the crazy billioners. My belief is even if and when it will be possible it will be controlled by the same people. And just as they did in the agriculture and meat industry, they will do the same or even worse because we will have no alternative by that time. If you go to the site of the company that made the first of such cultured burger, they present their scientists as “the next farmers”. Even in this drama, the little farmers are portrayed the evil ones, capable of even killing. Because of climate change, they impose such “regulations” and “laws” that make it very hard for the little ones to survive while the biggest ones are left alone to consolidate and get bigger. That is why we see them throwing manure at them in Europe, because they feel the pressure against their livelehood. So no, I don’t buy the climate change agenda when I see that nothing is done in other areas. We still let coca-cola and Pepsi sell their product in plastic bottles. We push for wars to manufacture more weapons. We bomb underwater gas lines. Everything is for oil, even in Gaza where they found oil in their sea. Even in Rusia, where they want it to cripple and go and steal their oil. Like they tried in Syria, where they still get oil from a part of the country like pirates. We haven’t stopped from overproducing and selling every crap under the world. I haven’t seen the billioners that are preaching this selling their waterfront properties but I have seen them buy more. Musk is shooting rackets into space like crazy lately. And recycling? Sure, we just send it in containers in other poor countries after China refused it a few years ago. It’s almost like the double-speach used in 1984, they all say something but are saying and doing the opposite at the same time. It sounds nice, people buy it, I mean who doesn’t want to look virtuous and supporting good ideas, but it doesn’t hold water when you look at it from afar. So no, I am not going to believe the rich billioners through their paid government, their paid media and their paid research papers and their paid teachers and scientists. Specially when they all agree in their message and their actions.
So why I am against the cultured meat besides the above reasons? Because I don’t believe in it when it is introduced as a solution to the climate change propaganda. That is bullshit (sorry about the word, I have become quite attached to it since Stranger Things) and even the drama touched upon it in the last episode. I don’t like the fear mongering tactics they use. If it was better they would not have the need for it. If it is a better product than let the people decide, let the free market do its job like it is supposed to in a true capitalism system, without scaring them or making them guilty. We have better options to perserve the enviro
Kodra aka Qanon something
April 25, 2024 at 9:31 AM
@hacja
….
We have better options to perserve the environment but we do not enforce them. If we can’t enforce them, then how we can control this one? We don’t know the long term health risks associated with it even if is done right. The fact that they agreed to sell it (although now you cannot buy it anywhere because of “production” problems) without long term trials it scares me. The fact that we don’t know if we buy GM products because they don’t label them scares me that they will not label it as such when it comes available. From the point of animal cruelty, I would agree with it but the health risks on human kind are greater in my opinion. Because we are a carnivore specie and we cannot deny that fact. It’s been done for thousands of years and I just don’t like to mess with the design or with what has been working for humans. Of course I do not agree on eating meat that has been altered or even vaccinated with the new mRNA vaccines also but that is another story. At least we still have the option to buy the meat from farms that do not use it or any of other malpractices asociated with meat production for now. Soon we won’t because it will be a monopoly. And lastly, because I am afraid that it will not be just an option at some point if they will ever figure it out (I think that they will, maybe not to the exact same conditions as meat but they don’t even need it to be to enforce it). Those rich people are crazy and they have too much power unfortunately.
About the kdrama, it did not disappoint me thus far but I have to see how it ends. I am optimistic with the latest developments. It clearly showed the motive behind her making the cultured meat and it was not for environmental reasons or animal cruelty. I think if she had the option, she would kill all cows, LOL. The use of vCJD didn’t bother me as much (although used as another scare tactic), hopefully it will shed some light on what happens when humans think they are too clever and try to trick the laws of nature. Including herself. It also mirrored the latest trend in the rich billioners and their search for immortality and their fight with time. Some just don’t know when to stop and I am afraid that this will cause the end of our society and not the climate change they are pushing. The climate change is just their way to dump the guilt and responsibilities to us while they continue to do their thing.
hacja
April 25, 2024 at 12:43 PM
@kodra Well, we’ve gone a little far afield here from the cultured meat question. I’m not going to comment on other things you said; some of which I accept, others of which I don’t. There are bad things that are historically constant–human greed, drive for power, intolerance etc. but there are also good things present in every historical era as well–concern for others, drive for new knowledge and technological progress, a sense of morality and justice, etc. I have strong opinions about where those good and bad things are manifested today, but as I’ve said several times, I am very conscious that on this kdrama site very few people are interested in my opinions on these matters, so I do my best to restrain myself, although obviously, given this discussion, I’m not always successful!
To conclude, I still stand by my assertion that cultured meat is not going to happen on the scale that this show proposes. I also still stand by my point that pursuing a variety of alternatives to the concentrated, mass production meat industry is not a bad thing. People like meat around the world, and if eaten in moderation it provides necessary nutrition, so I personally think there are is nothing wrong with the market providing it to them, but if we could get a number of options out there and alleviate some of the issues with the current food system, it would be good for the environment, human health, and for animal rights–this was my assertion that started this discussion. So I guess we didn’t sway each other either way, but it was a good writing exercise–got the typing fingers limbered up!