Copying what I wrote on soompi below as a summary: I had watched a short clip of the kiss before knowing any of the context. At the time MW’s initial kiss felt like a sad “goodbye” while CS’s followup felt like “this is just the beginning and I’m not letting you go no matter what”. I loved it so started watching ep12 with the full expectation of adoring the lot, only to get punched in the gut by the context and the price of that “no matter what”.
Up to now I had believed that the gods were, if not positively inclined towards MW and CS, at least fair; only it turns out that the only rule in this game is that the puppets they are playing with (MW and CS) need to be put through the maximum amount of hurt possible. Everything else is secondary: we no longer vanish evil spirits if it so suits; CS -who has yet to do a single thing wrong- is doomed as well, just for caring about MW. It was all preordained to end in disaster from the get go and everyone’s just a cog in the machine that makes it happen. MW was right all along not to trust them; this is more perverse that even she could imagine. The gods made it such that MW loving CS is enough to destroy them both. Given that her original trauma was about her loving someone causing the destruction of everything she holds dear, I don’t know what to call that except cruel… she really stood no chance. the ending was a done conclusion regardless what she does. the test is there only as an excuse and I bloody feel like swearing.
I’m hurt and I’m sad and I’m kind of angry. The fabric is tearing at the seams and for the first time the narrative core stopped making sense to me. it’s no longer about forgiveness, or the healing power of love, or moving on. I no longer have any idea what the hell is the point.
even shorter version: I disliked the not-quite-ghost of the day story, and I hated the conversation leading up to the kiss and the MG1 stating that CS needs to ‘pay’ for the privilege of saving her.
But the bottom line is that I thought they were selling to me a story about redemption and individual agency in one’s fate only to get nothing of the sort.
I still love MW and CS to pieces, but I am too angry at this universe’s idea of fairness.
I understand why you felt that way. I don’t really like any character in HdL so it didn’t make much difference, and for the record I still believe they are going for a redemption arc, but just to be fair I don’t think the story promised to do it so people should not be mad because they might not do it.
This is interesting to read because our interpretations about the drama are very different. I mentioned it in a recap thread but the idea of souls, reincarnation, even the idea that Mi Ra/the Princess had to lead many lives in “lesser” beings before being born as a human again – all this is very similar to the values and beliefs of my culture; and what I grew up with. There are variations – such as the complete destruction of a soul (we believe the soul is eternal, in fact, it IS “god” – but more or less the ideas in the show conform to those of my culture.
From my point of view, the show so far is telling us not to “curse” ourselves the way Man wol has done. It would have been appropriate for her to move on, and pay off her karmic debt through other lives. By staying on as a human, and as Man-wol, she has continued to entangle herself in further karmic webs, instead of paying off the debt, and the result is what we see: her “peers” (for lack of a better word) are being reborn as human, and an innocent being – Chan Sung – is now entangled in it too. From this perspective it makes sense for her to move on, with the trauma intact, because that is the rule of the universe.
But I also question whether the show will do that (moving on with the trauma intact) to be honest. Man wol has yet to learn that Captain did not in fact betray her. I dunno how that went down, but the show has always pointed in that direction. There is no way the show will leave that unexplored. Ultimately, I think it will come down to love and healing, and that’s when Man wol will go. [[It may even be that when her time starts running again, she gets to lead a normal human life (but this is REALLY stretching it)]]
There are other hints: eg knowing Man-wol probably saved Chan Sung’s life re the serial killer. If CS had been happily working away at a hotel, no one would know that his previous classmate was a serial killer (he’d probably have killed Yu Na/Ms. fourth choice), and CS’s life would have been at risk. It still is, but he had Man wol so its likely to be less at risk.
I could be entirely wrong in the end. XD Either way, its a fun show.
I am not religious and have been brought up in a very-mildly-christian household. So I am approaching the idea of karma and reincarnation as an outsider. And sorry if my attempt at explaining my take on all this comes out offensive for a believer.
I can buy into the idea that one goes through multiple cycles of existence and that there are karmic debts that one needs to pay for in this universe. I am struggling a bit with why is it so important to keep on living when having the option to go at it multiple times and in my eyes there’s a bit of a diminishing of the value now in the process, but I’m game. But wat’s really important for this narrative to work is free will. If I’m going to go through multiple cycles of pain for what I did, without remembering what my fault was, then I better have made that choice. So I liked MG’s “I open paths but it’s up for humans to follow them” as a neat way of navigating the conundrum between the existence of gods that have a say in what happens in the world and free will. I felt that in the second half of episode 12 what they did was take away that choice.
Since it was MG that sent CS to the hotel to help MW accept her past and get into the program of rebirth and redemption, why is he to pay a (very steep) price for doing what she asked him to? Is seems we are going into forcing MW between moving on and sacrificing CS in the process or vanishing. And that is no choice at all. They both get hurt badly in the process despite (at least for CS) doing nothing to deserve it. Maybe I got this all wrong and I’d see it differently on rewatch but it stopped making sense to me. I had a similar issue with the kid: the gods did not like his family having found a loop hole in the rules, so they sent MW to force him to make a choice between all 3 dying together or leaving his parents to break apart all by themselves before their still early death. How is that a choice? What was the ethical point of that? By now it looks to me is that it’s no longer about right and wrong but rather about the gods flexing their muscles because they can.
No worries re approaching this as an outsider. I’m rather skeptical too on what I grew up with, only that the show conforms to it.
We actually don’t know yet if CS will pay a very steep price for doing what Mago wanted. *fingers crossed* because I want them to have a happy ending. But in this show, there is no such thing as an end. You die, you move on, you are reborn. The cycle of life, death and rebirth repeats itself.
From the religious stand point that I refer to, there’s no such thing as free will. Our circumstances and temperament – determined by our past karma – limit our free will. For instance, an accident causing someone to go blind thereby cutting off many opportunities they would otherwise have had; or simply being born into a poor family and the absence of money dictating the choices one must make. Being born white into a wealthy family in an OECD country vs being born black into a poor family a war-torn country. Being dyslexic, having ADHD, female in a country that does not allow women to step out of the house without a man. Free will is limited in its “Freedom”.
Re Chan Sung, I frame it in the backdrop of his karmic web getting entangled with Man-wol’s endless one. This is the consequence of her choosing to further spin the web; instead of moving on and paying the debts. It’s her free will that caused this. That’s what Mago means, “you brought this on him”. Man-wol did.
Re the child. He chose to lessen the karmic burden on his parents and himself, by letting them live out what is left of their lives. It was an exercise of his free will.
I did mention I’m reaching into something I grew up with to understand the show. 😀 I’m sure the Hong Sisters aren’t. But they are unintentionally going into obscure spiritual beliefs from remote corners of India. You won’t find this in mainstream Hindu texts, it’s in the teachings of yogis and sants (in English, saints maybe?), a quiet undercurrent to the loud, visible, religious mainstay.
@greenfields but what you call “lack of freedom due to the situation one was born in” is allegedly a direct consequence of what one did in previous incarnations. So that means that my current consequences are defined by my past choices and what I chose to do about it in this lifetime defines my future. If that is not free will then I don’t know what is.
but I don’t get the role of the gods in all this: do they change events too or just police the eternal cycle of judgements? is there room for interpretation for the weight of one’s sins? for right and wrong? for crime and punishment? the Magos seem to imply yes but are we them back to being at the mercy of capricious gods?
Sorry for pushing you on this point… I should have payed attention in religion class rather than solving math problems behind the prof’s back. but then again my questions would have counted as heresy anyways
“It was all preordained to end in disaster from the get go and everyone’s just a cog in the machine that makes it happen”
Yeahp
“it’s no longer about right and wrong but rather about the gods flexing their muscles because they can”
It was NEVER about right and wrong. It was always about the gods, or rather actually the Hong Sisters, flexing.
I sound like an asshole for bringing this up again, but I did actually think this was going to happen from day one, and have maintained this view the entire time, and this is why the Ma Go as story telling devices piss me off: They remove free will, as you have quite correctly pointede out. Which if you believe in free will (which I’m guessing you do, as do I), is a metaphysical issue in the show itself.
@charlie – The idea is that free will in *this* life is negligible, yes, because of past entanglements.
@sicarius – I suppose I have no issues with the show because I don’t care about the concept of “free will”, more about correctly identifying and working with the constraints within which my “free will” is limited.
I do think the show is very well written. Does life exist to teach us lessons, help us heal, give us closure? Or does it just exist even though we don’t always get any of that? The show treats death and rebirth as an eternal cycle. Not good, not bad, just what is. Like Chan Sung’s mother really did just abandon her child, or the ghost whose wife abandoned him for her first love, was also just abandoned unfairly – it is what it is. Without any justification attached to it. It’s not something I see in television too often – mostly because people do want to see completed arcs and character development (me too); and I like the way it is handled here. From my perspective – the show’s treatment of its plot (so far) makes sense.
@greenfields
“not good not bad just what it is”- the problem with this is that it contradictory with some of the things explored in this show.
This show has a broken moral spectrum. It claims it does not abide by “human morality” (whatever that is exactly, it never says), but then has every other sub plot ghost of the week making moral judgements about what right and wrong actually is.
Chan Seong and Man Weol believe in their version of right and wrong, which doesn’t always line up with what the gods think as right or wrong (this is moral relativism), but then the whole show has these under-arching often seemingly almost Christian themes of unconditional love, forgiveness and redemption, but based on what? There’s no moral code for this to base it’s redemption arc on so it comes across as shallow.
On top of that it’s based in ancient Asian religions (as you’ve pointed out), which contradict both moral relativism AND Christianity.
Whatever your personal take on morality is, I find this show to have weak writing because it has three main worldviews it’s trying to make all its themes work through… and it doesn’t actually work.
Which is probably why you, I and Charlie see this show all very differently and interpret it in different ways. You see the moving on cirlce of life aspect, but I cannot ignore that it also sometimes attempts to be a redemption arc in disguise which just doesn’t make sense to me in light of all the rest of it. To Charlie (if I’m reading you right), to now turn and fully embrace a (potentially Hindu) seemingly hopeless (at least for Man Weol) worldview when so much of the show was pointing to another direction, seems yes, pointless, and sadistic.
@sicarius – actually that is my point. Redemption, moral judgments, we make them the best we can from our relative standpoints. The Magos are certainly not god, they’re merely the highest deity shown to us in the show. For instance, even black Mago has not been able to burn Park Il Do (who made a hilarious cameo) though she does usually turn spirits that harm humans, to ashes.
All the characters are acting from their very different points of view, and there is much chaos. The only constant I’m seeing is life, death, maybe spend some time as a spirit, rebirth. So long as that holds true, I’m able to understand the incomplete and chaotic arcs. Those may be elements of Christian and other thought, but it is a whole part of the books that occupy countless shelves in my house. XD (thanks to my mum) Things like redemption matter only because we’re unable to let go of that desire – but it seems like the show is saying, “let go, move on, don’t get attached to temporary things”.
And yup, I like that there are differing interpretations too. That the show makes no sense to you, and yet you watch it while criticizing everything it does; or that Charlie also could not justify what happened in the last episode but still loves the characters; or that I can relate a Korean drama to something the writers have likely never been exposed to.
In any case, I wholly expect the show to diverge from my pov and onto your’s – redemption, closure, healing – because this IS television. ^^;
@greenfields
Wait what was your point?
That morality is relative? Why is moral relativity something I, you to this show should ascribe to?
Or is your point that this show is good because it showcases so many standpoints?
But it doesn’t know it does. It’s not self aware. It’s just everything mushed together pretending to make sense. Are you elevating it’s chaos, which wasn’t on purpose and makes little sense when it comes down to basic storytelling, which this show is trying to adhere to in many other ways anyway? Is it smart because it is unintentionally a chaotic mess, much like the world? Is that what you mean?
Or even…
Is there no good or bad writing then, only chaos?
“Is it smart because it is unintentionally a chaotic mess, much like the world? Is that what you mean?” Yup. Boiled down into one line and stripped away of nuance, to fit your view of the world, yes – that is what I mean. But remember it is a chaos that makes sense to me because it fits within my view of the world, and I view it as the natural order of things. So if you want to call that world view entirely delusional and unstructured, that’s fine. 😅 I also agree that the show doesn’t intend to fit my world view, imho it only unintentionally does so – possibly because different Asian beliefs intermingle with one another here and there, and Buddhism (differing variants of it) is a thing in South Korea as well. The Hong Sisters may have indeed lost control, or they may be flexing and playing with characters – either way, I’m enjoying the ride.
I suppose this is another W: Two Worlds, which I loved although most people hated the second half because the chaos made no sense to them. On the other hand, I thought that the more nonsensical it became, the more “true” it was to Kang Chul, who hated that he’d had to suffer only so an audience could enjoy the outcome of his suffering. Very meta.
P.S. My comment isn’t meant to sound rude. I use *your* view of the world, and *my* view of the world to clearly delineate the two differing religious/spiritual beliefs that influence our perspectives.
@sicarius & Charlie – if I may add, the show draws heavily upon Eastern ideas of reincarnation, life and death, in its premise. If I understand Christianity and/or the general overall “Western” worldview correctly, reincarnation isn’t a very popular idea. So I think it may be worth considering the show from another point of view.
I agree when I read Sico’s shitposts that from your pov, it must be a nonsensical show. But do try and consider it from a perspective that differs from yours, and you (sico) may find there’s a lot to enjoy and explore in what it is giving us.
@greenfields
I think my problem with that is you’re justifying potentially flawed and bad writing as good with your own reasoning.
But you already know that cos we’ve had this discussion about W before: it wasn’t deliberately meta in its chaos, even though you enjoy it that way.
The same here; it’s more likely for it to just be poorly written than it is to be smart, especially if one agrees that it was unintentional in meeting one’s worldview.
We can discuss the origins or morality and logic some other day.
From the very beginning, I thought the writers were making the point that love is impossible without loss and suffering… either we die or our loved ones do, but someone is always left behind crying. and that when one commits to loving someone one has to also accept this price. And maybe the Hong sisters are simply going belabor that point for another 4 episodes but at this point it no longer feels insightful just sado-masochistic.
This is true. I agree with what the point of the show is. But I think that the story they’re setting up is one in which Man-wol realizes this too? She doesn’t seem to know it yet.
given how radically different people’s take on life-death-rebirth-redemption is, it occurs to me that it’s going to prove impossible for any writer to come up with an ending that does not offend someone’s sensibilities. Most likely, the Hong sisters will go for satisfying the Korean side of the audience (as Goblin’s writer did). I hope they may throw a bone to the poor Western audience as well.
I’ll say one good thing came out of all this: I’ve never done as much serious thinking on the relativism of one’s perceptions of the world before. The show gets full marks on that front.
I have concluded a very long time ago that no set of religious beliefs 100% stands up to thorough rational scrutiny, but it’s interesting to get everyone’s point of view. It is clear that my take on agency and responsibility in reincarnation is qualitatively very different from the Eastern view as described by greenfields. Unlike Sic, I also appreciated the show’s attempts at mashing up Buddhist and Christian aspects; it made me stretch my ethics muscles in new ways. But I’ve reached the straw that broke the camel’s back when it comes to the show’s internal logic. I’ll keep watching to see how it ends, but the ep.12 dveleopments made me lose any trust in the writers coming up with a satisfying logical resolution. From now I’ll just settle with “happy-enough ending for MW and CS”.
@charlieblue17, @sicarius and @greenfields
What an interesting conversation going on with such different views. This is why I love DB?
Such intelligent writing and very thought provoking for me. Do you all mind if I add my two cents?
Since episode 1 I’ve been watching this show and really just enjoyed the stories and IU’s wardrobe, but didn’t worry too much about the whole reincarnation and business of paying back a debt of some kind.
As a person who was raised catholic and called myself a christian for a few years before finally walking away from it all (I know refer to myself as a godless heathen) I find the idea of “God” making things happen or rendering any kind of judgement beyond anything I can accept.
Shit happens, over and over again, and we as human beings spend our lives figuring out how to respond. We learn to make choices, and then hopefully we learn to live with the choices we make.
This point of view comes from a middle-aged person who has been living with all the choices I made, and shit that has gone on in my life – but I find I’m more compassionate and empathetic as a result. Maybe that is the point of being human.
Episodes 11 and 12 were to me, about grieving and letting go. Yes some of them didn’t make sense (the little boy whose parents were aging too fast) but others like Sanchez saying goodbye to Veronica and MW and CS finally looking at what is coming and preparing themselves for it. I couldn’t help but think of my own grief and loss and those of people I’ve known. We all grieve differently.
We make choices in life, then we keep going. Yes this show is nonsensical in some ways, but what I’ve seen in this show is so many stories of people/ghosts making peace with whatever it was… and letting go to say goodbye.
Isn’t that what all religions are ultimately – a way for us humans to find peace with the decisions and choices we make in our lives? A way for us to learn how to accept ourselves as we are?
Reincarnation, karma, do-overs, forgiveness, anger, love, letting go, knowing when to let go – this is what it means to be a human being. Life is messy and imperfect, much of the time rather nice, and then really crappy at times – but we usually have a chance to take a breath and keep going. At least that is what I try to do.
Also I don’t expect these dramas to have a wealth of internal logic – if I wanted that I’d watch the Discovery Channel.
Perfectly valid. The primary purpose of the drama is to entertain, and the show does indeed score very high on that scale! I also agree that the show is about grieving and letting go, instead of trying to hold on and control the course of things. 🙂
CHARLIE
August 18, 2019 at 2:01 PM
HdL#12 For the record, this was the episode that broke me. I no longer get what is the whole point.
greenfields
August 18, 2019 at 5:50 PM
I’m curious..why didn’t you like ep 12? I thought it was in line with the show we’ve got so far.
CHARLIE
August 18, 2019 at 5:54 PM
Copying what I wrote on soompi below as a summary:
I had watched a short clip of the kiss before knowing any of the context. At the time MW’s initial kiss felt like a sad “goodbye” while CS’s followup felt like “this is just the beginning and I’m not letting you go no matter what”. I loved it so started watching ep12 with the full expectation of adoring the lot, only to get punched in the gut by the context and the price of that “no matter what”.
Up to now I had believed that the gods were, if not positively inclined towards MW and CS, at least fair; only it turns out that the only rule in this game is that the puppets they are playing with (MW and CS) need to be put through the maximum amount of hurt possible. Everything else is secondary: we no longer vanish evil spirits if it so suits; CS -who has yet to do a single thing wrong- is doomed as well, just for caring about MW. It was all preordained to end in disaster from the get go and everyone’s just a cog in the machine that makes it happen. MW was right all along not to trust them; this is more perverse that even she could imagine. The gods made it such that MW loving CS is enough to destroy them both. Given that her original trauma was about her loving someone causing the destruction of everything she holds dear, I don’t know what to call that except cruel… she really stood no chance. the ending was a done conclusion regardless what she does. the test is there only as an excuse and I bloody feel like swearing.
I’m hurt and I’m sad and I’m kind of angry. The fabric is tearing at the seams and for the first time the narrative core stopped making sense to me. it’s no longer about forgiveness, or the healing power of love, or moving on. I no longer have any idea what the hell is the point.
even longer rant here: https://silentlurkingbluey.tumblr.com/
CHARLIE
August 18, 2019 at 6:04 PM
even shorter version: I disliked the not-quite-ghost of the day story, and I hated the conversation leading up to the kiss and the MG1 stating that CS needs to ‘pay’ for the privilege of saving her.
CHARLIE
August 18, 2019 at 6:11 PM
But the bottom line is that I thought they were selling to me a story about redemption and individual agency in one’s fate only to get nothing of the sort.
I still love MW and CS to pieces, but I am too angry at this universe’s idea of fairness.
Lixie
August 19, 2019 at 5:32 PM
I understand why you felt that way. I don’t really like any character in HdL so it didn’t make much difference, and for the record I still believe they are going for a redemption arc, but just to be fair I don’t think the story promised to do it so people should not be mad because they might not do it.
greenfields
August 18, 2019 at 6:45 PM
This is interesting to read because our interpretations about the drama are very different. I mentioned it in a recap thread but the idea of souls, reincarnation, even the idea that Mi Ra/the Princess had to lead many lives in “lesser” beings before being born as a human again – all this is very similar to the values and beliefs of my culture; and what I grew up with. There are variations – such as the complete destruction of a soul (we believe the soul is eternal, in fact, it IS “god” – but more or less the ideas in the show conform to those of my culture.
From my point of view, the show so far is telling us not to “curse” ourselves the way Man wol has done. It would have been appropriate for her to move on, and pay off her karmic debt through other lives. By staying on as a human, and as Man-wol, she has continued to entangle herself in further karmic webs, instead of paying off the debt, and the result is what we see: her “peers” (for lack of a better word) are being reborn as human, and an innocent being – Chan Sung – is now entangled in it too. From this perspective it makes sense for her to move on, with the trauma intact, because that is the rule of the universe.
But I also question whether the show will do that (moving on with the trauma intact) to be honest. Man wol has yet to learn that Captain did not in fact betray her. I dunno how that went down, but the show has always pointed in that direction. There is no way the show will leave that unexplored. Ultimately, I think it will come down to love and healing, and that’s when Man wol will go. [[It may even be that when her time starts running again, she gets to lead a normal human life (but this is REALLY stretching it)]]
There are other hints: eg knowing Man-wol probably saved Chan Sung’s life re the serial killer. If CS had been happily working away at a hotel, no one would know that his previous classmate was a serial killer (he’d probably have killed Yu Na/Ms. fourth choice), and CS’s life would have been at risk. It still is, but he had Man wol so its likely to be less at risk.
I could be entirely wrong in the end. XD Either way, its a fun show.
CHARLIE
August 18, 2019 at 9:02 PM
Comment was deleted
CHARLIE
August 18, 2019 at 9:07 PM
I am not religious and have been brought up in a very-mildly-christian household. So I am approaching the idea of karma and reincarnation as an outsider. And sorry if my attempt at explaining my take on all this comes out offensive for a believer.
I can buy into the idea that one goes through multiple cycles of existence and that there are karmic debts that one needs to pay for in this universe. I am struggling a bit with why is it so important to keep on living when having the option to go at it multiple times and in my eyes there’s a bit of a diminishing of the value now in the process, but I’m game. But wat’s really important for this narrative to work is free will. If I’m going to go through multiple cycles of pain for what I did, without remembering what my fault was, then I better have made that choice. So I liked MG’s “I open paths but it’s up for humans to follow them” as a neat way of navigating the conundrum between the existence of gods that have a say in what happens in the world and free will. I felt that in the second half of episode 12 what they did was take away that choice.
Since it was MG that sent CS to the hotel to help MW accept her past and get into the program of rebirth and redemption, why is he to pay a (very steep) price for doing what she asked him to? Is seems we are going into forcing MW between moving on and sacrificing CS in the process or vanishing. And that is no choice at all. They both get hurt badly in the process despite (at least for CS) doing nothing to deserve it. Maybe I got this all wrong and I’d see it differently on rewatch but it stopped making sense to me. I had a similar issue with the kid: the gods did not like his family having found a loop hole in the rules, so they sent MW to force him to make a choice between all 3 dying together or leaving his parents to break apart all by themselves before their still early death. How is that a choice? What was the ethical point of that? By now it looks to me is that it’s no longer about right and wrong but rather about the gods flexing their muscles because they can.
greenfields
August 18, 2019 at 9:36 PM
No worries re approaching this as an outsider. I’m rather skeptical too on what I grew up with, only that the show conforms to it.
We actually don’t know yet if CS will pay a very steep price for doing what Mago wanted. *fingers crossed* because I want them to have a happy ending. But in this show, there is no such thing as an end. You die, you move on, you are reborn. The cycle of life, death and rebirth repeats itself.
From the religious stand point that I refer to, there’s no such thing as free will. Our circumstances and temperament – determined by our past karma – limit our free will. For instance, an accident causing someone to go blind thereby cutting off many opportunities they would otherwise have had; or simply being born into a poor family and the absence of money dictating the choices one must make. Being born white into a wealthy family in an OECD country vs being born black into a poor family a war-torn country. Being dyslexic, having ADHD, female in a country that does not allow women to step out of the house without a man. Free will is limited in its “Freedom”.
Re Chan Sung, I frame it in the backdrop of his karmic web getting entangled with Man-wol’s endless one. This is the consequence of her choosing to further spin the web; instead of moving on and paying the debts. It’s her free will that caused this. That’s what Mago means, “you brought this on him”. Man-wol did.
Re the child. He chose to lessen the karmic burden on his parents and himself, by letting them live out what is left of their lives. It was an exercise of his free will.
I did mention I’m reaching into something I grew up with to understand the show. 😀 I’m sure the Hong Sisters aren’t. But they are unintentionally going into obscure spiritual beliefs from remote corners of India. You won’t find this in mainstream Hindu texts, it’s in the teachings of yogis and sants (in English, saints maybe?), a quiet undercurrent to the loud, visible, religious mainstay.
CHARLIE
August 19, 2019 at 2:38 AM
@greenfields but what you call “lack of freedom due to the situation one was born in” is allegedly a direct consequence of what one did in previous incarnations. So that means that my current consequences are defined by my past choices and what I chose to do about it in this lifetime defines my future. If that is not free will then I don’t know what is.
but I don’t get the role of the gods in all this: do they change events too or just police the eternal cycle of judgements? is there room for interpretation for the weight of one’s sins? for right and wrong? for crime and punishment? the Magos seem to imply yes but are we them back to being at the mercy of capricious gods?
Sorry for pushing you on this point… I should have payed attention in religion class rather than solving math problems behind the prof’s back. but then again my questions would have counted as heresy anyways
💜🍍☠ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia ☠🍍💜
August 19, 2019 at 3:52 AM
“It was all preordained to end in disaster from the get go and everyone’s just a cog in the machine that makes it happen”
Yeahp
“it’s no longer about right and wrong but rather about the gods flexing their muscles because they can”
It was NEVER about right and wrong. It was always about the gods, or rather actually the Hong Sisters, flexing.
I sound like an asshole for bringing this up again, but I did actually think this was going to happen from day one, and have maintained this view the entire time, and this is why the Ma Go as story telling devices piss me off: They remove free will, as you have quite correctly pointede out. Which if you believe in free will (which I’m guessing you do, as do I), is a metaphysical issue in the show itself.
greenfields
August 19, 2019 at 4:11 AM
@charlie – The idea is that free will in *this* life is negligible, yes, because of past entanglements.
@sicarius – I suppose I have no issues with the show because I don’t care about the concept of “free will”, more about correctly identifying and working with the constraints within which my “free will” is limited.
I do think the show is very well written. Does life exist to teach us lessons, help us heal, give us closure? Or does it just exist even though we don’t always get any of that? The show treats death and rebirth as an eternal cycle. Not good, not bad, just what is. Like Chan Sung’s mother really did just abandon her child, or the ghost whose wife abandoned him for her first love, was also just abandoned unfairly – it is what it is. Without any justification attached to it. It’s not something I see in television too often – mostly because people do want to see completed arcs and character development (me too); and I like the way it is handled here. From my perspective – the show’s treatment of its plot (so far) makes sense.
💜🍍☠ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia ☠🍍💜
August 19, 2019 at 4:28 AM
@greenfields
“not good not bad just what it is”- the problem with this is that it contradictory with some of the things explored in this show.
This show has a broken moral spectrum. It claims it does not abide by “human morality” (whatever that is exactly, it never says), but then has every other sub plot ghost of the week making moral judgements about what right and wrong actually is.
Chan Seong and Man Weol believe in their version of right and wrong, which doesn’t always line up with what the gods think as right or wrong (this is moral relativism), but then the whole show has these under-arching often seemingly almost Christian themes of unconditional love, forgiveness and redemption, but based on what? There’s no moral code for this to base it’s redemption arc on so it comes across as shallow.
On top of that it’s based in ancient Asian religions (as you’ve pointed out), which contradict both moral relativism AND Christianity.
Whatever your personal take on morality is, I find this show to have weak writing because it has three main worldviews it’s trying to make all its themes work through… and it doesn’t actually work.
Which is probably why you, I and Charlie see this show all very differently and interpret it in different ways. You see the moving on cirlce of life aspect, but I cannot ignore that it also sometimes attempts to be a redemption arc in disguise which just doesn’t make sense to me in light of all the rest of it. To Charlie (if I’m reading you right), to now turn and fully embrace a (potentially Hindu) seemingly hopeless (at least for Man Weol) worldview when so much of the show was pointing to another direction, seems yes, pointless, and sadistic.
greenfields
August 19, 2019 at 4:42 AM
@sicarius – actually that is my point. Redemption, moral judgments, we make them the best we can from our relative standpoints. The Magos are certainly not god, they’re merely the highest deity shown to us in the show. For instance, even black Mago has not been able to burn Park Il Do (who made a hilarious cameo) though she does usually turn spirits that harm humans, to ashes.
All the characters are acting from their very different points of view, and there is much chaos. The only constant I’m seeing is life, death, maybe spend some time as a spirit, rebirth. So long as that holds true, I’m able to understand the incomplete and chaotic arcs. Those may be elements of Christian and other thought, but it is a whole part of the books that occupy countless shelves in my house. XD (thanks to my mum) Things like redemption matter only because we’re unable to let go of that desire – but it seems like the show is saying, “let go, move on, don’t get attached to temporary things”.
And yup, I like that there are differing interpretations too. That the show makes no sense to you, and yet you watch it while criticizing everything it does; or that Charlie also could not justify what happened in the last episode but still loves the characters; or that I can relate a Korean drama to something the writers have likely never been exposed to.
In any case, I wholly expect the show to diverge from my pov and onto your’s – redemption, closure, healing – because this IS television. ^^;
💜🍍☠ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia ☠🍍💜
August 19, 2019 at 5:02 AM
@greenfields
Wait what was your point?
That morality is relative? Why is moral relativity something I, you to this show should ascribe to?
Or is your point that this show is good because it showcases so many standpoints?
But it doesn’t know it does. It’s not self aware. It’s just everything mushed together pretending to make sense. Are you elevating it’s chaos, which wasn’t on purpose and makes little sense when it comes down to basic storytelling, which this show is trying to adhere to in many other ways anyway? Is it smart because it is unintentionally a chaotic mess, much like the world? Is that what you mean?
Or even…
Is there no good or bad writing then, only chaos?
greenfields
August 19, 2019 at 5:20 AM
“Is it smart because it is unintentionally a chaotic mess, much like the world? Is that what you mean?” Yup. Boiled down into one line and stripped away of nuance, to fit your view of the world, yes – that is what I mean. But remember it is a chaos that makes sense to me because it fits within my view of the world, and I view it as the natural order of things. So if you want to call that world view entirely delusional and unstructured, that’s fine. 😅 I also agree that the show doesn’t intend to fit my world view, imho it only unintentionally does so – possibly because different Asian beliefs intermingle with one another here and there, and Buddhism (differing variants of it) is a thing in South Korea as well. The Hong Sisters may have indeed lost control, or they may be flexing and playing with characters – either way, I’m enjoying the ride.
I suppose this is another W: Two Worlds, which I loved although most people hated the second half because the chaos made no sense to them. On the other hand, I thought that the more nonsensical it became, the more “true” it was to Kang Chul, who hated that he’d had to suffer only so an audience could enjoy the outcome of his suffering. Very meta.
P.S. My comment isn’t meant to sound rude. I use *your* view of the world, and *my* view of the world to clearly delineate the two differing religious/spiritual beliefs that influence our perspectives.
greenfields
August 19, 2019 at 5:25 AM
On another note, morality is definitely relative. It is clear intolerance to assume anything else.
greenfields
August 19, 2019 at 6:41 AM
@sicarius & Charlie – if I may add, the show draws heavily upon Eastern ideas of reincarnation, life and death, in its premise. If I understand Christianity and/or the general overall “Western” worldview correctly, reincarnation isn’t a very popular idea. So I think it may be worth considering the show from another point of view.
I agree when I read Sico’s shitposts that from your pov, it must be a nonsensical show. But do try and consider it from a perspective that differs from yours, and you (sico) may find there’s a lot to enjoy and explore in what it is giving us.
💜🍍☠ Sicarius The Queen of Melonia ☠🍍💜
August 20, 2019 at 3:50 PM
@greenfields
I think my problem with that is you’re justifying potentially flawed and bad writing as good with your own reasoning.
But you already know that cos we’ve had this discussion about W before: it wasn’t deliberately meta in its chaos, even though you enjoy it that way.
The same here; it’s more likely for it to just be poorly written than it is to be smart, especially if one agrees that it was unintentional in meeting one’s worldview.
We can discuss the origins or morality and logic some other day.
greenfields
August 20, 2019 at 6:04 PM
Lol @sicarius I think you’re justifying good writing as being bad and flawed with your own reasoning too. 😄
CHARLIE
August 18, 2019 at 9:35 PM
From the very beginning, I thought the writers were making the point that love is impossible without loss and suffering… either we die or our loved ones do, but someone is always left behind crying. and that when one commits to loving someone one has to also accept this price. And maybe the Hong sisters are simply going belabor that point for another 4 episodes but at this point it no longer feels insightful just sado-masochistic.
greenfields
August 18, 2019 at 9:38 PM
This is true. I agree with what the point of the show is. But I think that the story they’re setting up is one in which Man-wol realizes this too? She doesn’t seem to know it yet.
CHARLIE
August 19, 2019 at 8:17 PM
given how radically different people’s take on life-death-rebirth-redemption is, it occurs to me that it’s going to prove impossible for any writer to come up with an ending that does not offend someone’s sensibilities. Most likely, the Hong sisters will go for satisfying the Korean side of the audience (as Goblin’s writer did). I hope they may throw a bone to the poor Western audience as well.
I’ll say one good thing came out of all this: I’ve never done as much serious thinking on the relativism of one’s perceptions of the world before. The show gets full marks on that front.
greenfields
August 19, 2019 at 10:57 PM
True re serious thinking on the relativism. I’m exhausted from thinking about this show.
CHARLIE
August 19, 2019 at 10:23 AM
@greenfields @sicarius This is all very interesting. Thank you for chiming in.
I have concluded a very long time ago that no set of religious beliefs 100% stands up to thorough rational scrutiny, but it’s interesting to get everyone’s point of view. It is clear that my take on agency and responsibility in reincarnation is qualitatively very different from the Eastern view as described by greenfields. Unlike Sic, I also appreciated the show’s attempts at mashing up Buddhist and Christian aspects; it made me stretch my ethics muscles in new ways. But I’ve reached the straw that broke the camel’s back when it comes to the show’s internal logic. I’ll keep watching to see how it ends, but the ep.12 dveleopments made me lose any trust in the writers coming up with a satisfying logical resolution. From now I’ll just settle with “happy-enough ending for MW and CS”.
stpauligurl
August 19, 2019 at 12:34 PM
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stpauligurl
August 19, 2019 at 12:35 PM
@charlieblue17, @sicarius and @greenfields
What an interesting conversation going on with such different views. This is why I love DB?
Such intelligent writing and very thought provoking for me. Do you all mind if I add my two cents?
Since episode 1 I’ve been watching this show and really just enjoyed the stories and IU’s wardrobe, but didn’t worry too much about the whole reincarnation and business of paying back a debt of some kind.
As a person who was raised catholic and called myself a christian for a few years before finally walking away from it all (I know refer to myself as a godless heathen) I find the idea of “God” making things happen or rendering any kind of judgement beyond anything I can accept.
Shit happens, over and over again, and we as human beings spend our lives figuring out how to respond. We learn to make choices, and then hopefully we learn to live with the choices we make.
This point of view comes from a middle-aged person who has been living with all the choices I made, and shit that has gone on in my life – but I find I’m more compassionate and empathetic as a result. Maybe that is the point of being human.
Episodes 11 and 12 were to me, about grieving and letting go. Yes some of them didn’t make sense (the little boy whose parents were aging too fast) but others like Sanchez saying goodbye to Veronica and MW and CS finally looking at what is coming and preparing themselves for it. I couldn’t help but think of my own grief and loss and those of people I’ve known. We all grieve differently.
We make choices in life, then we keep going. Yes this show is nonsensical in some ways, but what I’ve seen in this show is so many stories of people/ghosts making peace with whatever it was… and letting go to say goodbye.
Isn’t that what all religions are ultimately – a way for us humans to find peace with the decisions and choices we make in our lives? A way for us to learn how to accept ourselves as we are?
Reincarnation, karma, do-overs, forgiveness, anger, love, letting go, knowing when to let go – this is what it means to be a human being. Life is messy and imperfect, much of the time rather nice, and then really crappy at times – but we usually have a chance to take a breath and keep going. At least that is what I try to do.
Also I don’t expect these dramas to have a wealth of internal logic – if I wanted that I’d watch the Discovery Channel.
greenfields
August 19, 2019 at 10:58 PM
Perfectly valid. The primary purpose of the drama is to entertain, and the show does indeed score very high on that scale! I also agree that the show is about grieving and letting go, instead of trying to hold on and control the course of things. 🙂
greenfields
August 19, 2019 at 10:59 PM
(by that I obviously mean the inevitable, such as the passing away of a loved one – not “control” as in our daily lives)
CHARLIE
August 19, 2019 at 8:14 PM
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