Following a few remarks I picked up from George Kallender’s intro to the « Diary of 1636 » (mentioned before) which I found interesting and useful for the conversation on « My Dearest » :
ONE—
« In contemporary North and South Korean historiography, the first attack in known as “the invasion of the cyclical year 1627” and the second as the “invasion of the cyclical year 1636-1637.” THESE ATTACKS WERE SEISMIC EVENTS IN CHOSON HISTORY WITH LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES.
Thet fortified anti-Manchu sentiment, stimulated proto-national consciousness, and BEGAN A PROCESS THAT WOULD TURN KOREANS AWAY FROM THE OVER-GLORIFICATION OF CHINESE CIVILIZATION to focus their attention on cultural developments in Korea. »
TWO—
« Na may have also underestimated the extent to which the diary could serve as a source for Manchu and Chinese history.
The work describes the early period of Manchu development and expansion around the activities and personalities of key Manchu figures—such as Hung Taiji and his family members who accompanied him to Korea, and top Manchu generals Ingguldai and Mafuta—who appear frequently throughout the diary. Of course, New Qing History contests the notion of “Manchu” identity today, especially regarding the formative period in the early decades of the seventeenth century.
Na did not use the term “Manchu.” He refers to them politically as the Jin and the Qing dynasties and, less cordially, as the enemy or barbarians.
Still, HE DESCRIBES A TIME WHEN THE MANCHU STRUGGLED WITH IDENTITY— WHEN TO ACT MORE CONFUCIAN AND WHEN TO ACT MORE JURCHEN—as they moved beyond their homelands and collided with other groups, most importantly the Ming Chinese–oriented worldview of the Chosŏn. The diary shows some key concepts that appear to be unique or specific to their Jurchen or Manchu culture, such as the forced intermarriage of the Manchu and Korean elites, the stealing of horses, and the interior arrangement of Hung Taiji’s military tent. However, it also reveals that, AS EARLY AS 1636, THE MANCHU BEGAN DEFTLY ADOPTING CONFUCIAN RHETORIC AND CONCEPTS IN THEIR DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENCE WITH THE CHOSŎN DYNASTY, WHETHER OR NOT THEY ACTUALLY BELIEVED IN THEM. »
THREE— That can be seen in EP 14 ….
« As will be shown below, the Manchu, in the early decades of the seventeenth century, CAPTURED A NUMBER OF CHOSŎN MILITARY MEN WHO HAD FOUGHT WITH THE MING IN THE NORTHEAST REGIONS. Some of these men remained in Jurchen-Manchu lands, learned to speak Manchu, and later served as envoys between the Qing and Chosŏn courts. Judging from Manchu acceptance of the Chinese and other tribal people, as the Manchu created their empire, it would not have been a stretch for them to extend this process of assimilation and border crossing to those born on the Korean peninsula. There probably were Koreans who moved across the frontier and took Manchu identities. Na’s diary serves as a supplement to the works of New Qing history scholarship by helping to untangle issues of identity in the early period of the Manchu empire.»
@angelshadows50, thank you for the historical background and attention to detail. I am inspired to go to the library to find a book on earlier Korean history. What I’ve read is more recent history. You took this drama and ran with it!
My pleasure, @owl. I am really glad that my posts here have inspired you to do so. When I discovered Korean dramas not too long ago, I was overwhelmed with the amount of «otherness» I experienced. I found it utterly intriguing. «Other» from what I knew and had learnt so far … I have no family connection to Korea and so it was a far-away and even geopolitical tiny place about which I had not cared in particular. When I read praises about the « 500 years of (steady) Joseon history » I was somewhat intrigued. By now I have learnt that « steadfastness » came at a price too, and that this place did undergo the same trials and tribulations as the rest of the human world. I often quote the shorthand version, Yuval Noah Harari uses for this: famine, plague and war. Just the Korean experiences and answers, as portrayed in contemporary and period drama series, seemed to really interest me now. I still can’t answer why, like others here, I too watch almost exclusively K-Drama now. I love films and watched a lot in the past. I learn from films. I also have learnt a few years ago, why I cannot watch certain types of storytelling, of which South Korea, until recently, did not seem to do a lot: violence as in pure portray of violence ; or horror, or necrophilic portrays. I literally cannot watch that because it affects me too much, physically and mentally, as I am what Elaine Aron calls an HSP.
But I can unravel the intricacies of history, art, metaphor. I love doing that. Time jump, past life etc. experiences portrayed in K-drama feel real to me, genuine ; I can relate to that. Also, all K-dramas I have seen so far took their time to develop a story, and it was not totally angst, relationship hardship without any reason and violence for violence’s sake. Most K-dramas I saw had a soul, if I may phrase it that way. American movies/series, be they the Christian (Hallmark) or blockbuster variety seem of a stereotyping which I find much less interesting, soulless … maybe. I used to watch them a lot.
So I, too, am going backwards and forwards in Korean history. I started with Dong Yi. That was the sageuk which has inspired me most so far. « My Dearest » is a close second, moving fast to number one.
Oh, and yes, there was a really good 5-part documentary about South Korea on French/German Arte a few years back, which I recorded and recently watched again. The Koreans are portrayed as « creative » peoples … I like that idea.
Ah, good sound reasoning behind the intrigue of K-dramas for those of us who have shifted our viewing to them almost exclusively.
I don’t know how to upload a picture in this thread, but I’ve posted a book on my wall that I am reading. It is dense and fact packed, but very interesting. The acknowledgements highlight the importance of interviews of village elders combined with info from the Dept of Anthropology at Seoul U and Korean Studies.
“Na did not use the term “Manchu.” He refers to them politically as the Jin and the Qing dynasties and, less cordially, as the enemy or barbarians.”
While writing his journal, Hong Taiji barely declared himself emperor and changed Jurchen to Manchu and their new language in 1635. Na was a part of a court that was anti-Jin (Qing).
I wonder what would have happened if they accepted Nurhaci’s help with the Japanese Invasion.
It would have been advantageous for a small country like Joseon to have more allies than enemies, but they put all their eggs in one basket (Ming).
Only Gwanghae saw these invasions coming and did something about it, but he had to be dragged off the throne because he was seen as siding with the enemy.
The suffering of the people could have been avoided.
Our poor crown prince is another Gwanghae in the making. I wonder if he should have waited for his father to die first before introducing his ideas and plan for the future.
Hmm, yes, I see what you’re saying. It is also difficult to do because if it becomes too «documentary» people might feel lost. «Yeon-in» does —I presume intentionally— NOT do that but sticks to the historical events at that time AND then uses the human-interest «eternal» yet star-crossed love as red threat (starting with Gil-Chae’s dream) ; yet, as I said in the recap threat, one needs to know a lot to understand a lot, I find. But it’s fun to fin stuff out …. So that’s okay.
Maybe the Dramabeanies could start a list of really good sageuks, which King/Period, and why the beanie contributor thinks its particularly good … Isn’t there a section where this could be done? Mimi puts hearts against her selection …
angelshadows50
October 22, 2023 at 6:07 AM
Following a few remarks I picked up from George Kallender’s intro to the « Diary of 1636 » (mentioned before) which I found interesting and useful for the conversation on « My Dearest » :
ONE—
« In contemporary North and South Korean historiography, the first attack in known as “the invasion of the cyclical year 1627” and the second as the “invasion of the cyclical year 1636-1637.” THESE ATTACKS WERE SEISMIC EVENTS IN CHOSON HISTORY WITH LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES.
Thet fortified anti-Manchu sentiment, stimulated proto-national consciousness, and BEGAN A PROCESS THAT WOULD TURN KOREANS AWAY FROM THE OVER-GLORIFICATION OF CHINESE CIVILIZATION to focus their attention on cultural developments in Korea. »
TWO—
« Na may have also underestimated the extent to which the diary could serve as a source for Manchu and Chinese history.
The work describes the early period of Manchu development and expansion around the activities and personalities of key Manchu figures—such as Hung Taiji and his family members who accompanied him to Korea, and top Manchu generals Ingguldai and Mafuta—who appear frequently throughout the diary. Of course, New Qing History contests the notion of “Manchu” identity today, especially regarding the formative period in the early decades of the seventeenth century.
Na did not use the term “Manchu.” He refers to them politically as the Jin and the Qing dynasties and, less cordially, as the enemy or barbarians.
Still, HE DESCRIBES A TIME WHEN THE MANCHU STRUGGLED WITH IDENTITY— WHEN TO ACT MORE CONFUCIAN AND WHEN TO ACT MORE JURCHEN—as they moved beyond their homelands and collided with other groups, most importantly the Ming Chinese–oriented worldview of the Chosŏn. The diary shows some key concepts that appear to be unique or specific to their Jurchen or Manchu culture, such as the forced intermarriage of the Manchu and Korean elites, the stealing of horses, and the interior arrangement of Hung Taiji’s military tent. However, it also reveals that, AS EARLY AS 1636, THE MANCHU BEGAN DEFTLY ADOPTING CONFUCIAN RHETORIC AND CONCEPTS IN THEIR DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENCE WITH THE CHOSŎN DYNASTY, WHETHER OR NOT THEY ACTUALLY BELIEVED IN THEM. »
THREE— That can be seen in EP 14 ….
« As will be shown below, the Manchu, in the early decades of the seventeenth century, CAPTURED A NUMBER OF CHOSŎN MILITARY MEN WHO HAD FOUGHT WITH THE MING IN THE NORTHEAST REGIONS. Some of these men remained in Jurchen-Manchu lands, learned to speak Manchu, and later served as envoys between the Qing and Chosŏn courts. Judging from Manchu acceptance of the Chinese and other tribal people, as the Manchu created their empire, it would not have been a stretch for them to extend this process of assimilation and border crossing to those born on the Korean peninsula. There probably were Koreans who moved across the frontier and took Manchu identities. Na’s diary serves as a supplement to the works of New Qing history scholarship by helping to untangle issues of identity in the early period of the Manchu empire.»
owl 🦉 🫰
October 22, 2023 at 6:59 AM
@angelshadows50, thank you for the historical background and attention to detail. I am inspired to go to the library to find a book on earlier Korean history. What I’ve read is more recent history. You took this drama and ran with it!
angelshadows50
October 22, 2023 at 7:38 AM
My pleasure, @owl. I am really glad that my posts here have inspired you to do so. When I discovered Korean dramas not too long ago, I was overwhelmed with the amount of «otherness» I experienced. I found it utterly intriguing. «Other» from what I knew and had learnt so far … I have no family connection to Korea and so it was a far-away and even geopolitical tiny place about which I had not cared in particular. When I read praises about the « 500 years of (steady) Joseon history » I was somewhat intrigued. By now I have learnt that « steadfastness » came at a price too, and that this place did undergo the same trials and tribulations as the rest of the human world. I often quote the shorthand version, Yuval Noah Harari uses for this: famine, plague and war. Just the Korean experiences and answers, as portrayed in contemporary and period drama series, seemed to really interest me now. I still can’t answer why, like others here, I too watch almost exclusively K-Drama now. I love films and watched a lot in the past. I learn from films. I also have learnt a few years ago, why I cannot watch certain types of storytelling, of which South Korea, until recently, did not seem to do a lot: violence as in pure portray of violence ; or horror, or necrophilic portrays. I literally cannot watch that because it affects me too much, physically and mentally, as I am what Elaine Aron calls an HSP.
But I can unravel the intricacies of history, art, metaphor. I love doing that. Time jump, past life etc. experiences portrayed in K-drama feel real to me, genuine ; I can relate to that. Also, all K-dramas I have seen so far took their time to develop a story, and it was not totally angst, relationship hardship without any reason and violence for violence’s sake. Most K-dramas I saw had a soul, if I may phrase it that way. American movies/series, be they the Christian (Hallmark) or blockbuster variety seem of a stereotyping which I find much less interesting, soulless … maybe. I used to watch them a lot.
So I, too, am going backwards and forwards in Korean history. I started with Dong Yi. That was the sageuk which has inspired me most so far. « My Dearest » is a close second, moving fast to number one.
Oh, and yes, there was a really good 5-part documentary about South Korea on French/German Arte a few years back, which I recorded and recently watched again. The Koreans are portrayed as « creative » peoples … I like that idea.
owl 🦉 🫰
October 22, 2023 at 8:07 AM
Ah, good sound reasoning behind the intrigue of K-dramas for those of us who have shifted our viewing to them almost exclusively.
I don’t know how to upload a picture in this thread, but I’ve posted a book on my wall that I am reading. It is dense and fact packed, but very interesting. The acknowledgements highlight the importance of interviews of village elders combined with info from the Dept of Anthropology at Seoul U and Korean Studies.
angelshadows50
October 22, 2023 at 8:50 AM
Great! I’ll have a look. Thank you.
kiara
October 22, 2023 at 7:46 AM
Great job, @angelshadows50!
“Na did not use the term “Manchu.” He refers to them politically as the Jin and the Qing dynasties and, less cordially, as the enemy or barbarians.”
While writing his journal, Hong Taiji barely declared himself emperor and changed Jurchen to Manchu and their new language in 1635. Na was a part of a court that was anti-Jin (Qing).
I wonder what would have happened if they accepted Nurhaci’s help with the Japanese Invasion.
It would have been advantageous for a small country like Joseon to have more allies than enemies, but they put all their eggs in one basket (Ming).
Only Gwanghae saw these invasions coming and did something about it, but he had to be dragged off the throne because he was seen as siding with the enemy.
The suffering of the people could have been avoided.
kiara
October 22, 2023 at 7:51 AM
Our poor crown prince is another Gwanghae in the making. I wonder if he should have waited for his father to die first before introducing his ideas and plan for the future.
angelshadows50
October 22, 2023 at 7:54 AM
Have you seen a good sageuk on Gwanghae?
kiara
October 22, 2023 at 8:07 AM
I’m still waiting for a good sageuk on Gwanghae. Diving deep into a controversial figure is difficult without riling up the historians and viewers.
angelshadows50
October 22, 2023 at 8:54 AM
Hmm, yes, I see what you’re saying. It is also difficult to do because if it becomes too «documentary» people might feel lost. «Yeon-in» does —I presume intentionally— NOT do that but sticks to the historical events at that time AND then uses the human-interest «eternal» yet star-crossed love as red threat (starting with Gil-Chae’s dream) ; yet, as I said in the recap threat, one needs to know a lot to understand a lot, I find. But it’s fun to fin stuff out …. So that’s okay.
angelshadows50
October 22, 2023 at 9:05 AM
Maybe the Dramabeanies could start a list of really good sageuks, which King/Period, and why the beanie contributor thinks its particularly good … Isn’t there a section where this could be done? Mimi puts hearts against her selection …
Snow Flower
October 22, 2023 at 8:15 PM
A good Gwanghae sageuk is my dream drama. Starring Jang Hyuk, of course.
angelshadows50
October 23, 2023 at 8:00 AM
Don’t we have a few writers in the beanie community? Let’s start an ideas sheet for it ….