Love your come back “not atm, but the night is still young, who knows)))”.

So @hacja, @marcusnyc20, @kiara, @9tailedvixen, @dncingemma and everyone else who's still interested in this topic - thanks to yall I've got a whole 1 hour lecture regarding female archery (and weaponry in general) of Ancient Korea and Japan))) Compressed version below:

- there absolutely WAS such tradition in Ye Olde Times in both countries. Not as common as with male fighters, ofc, but since in pre-20s century eras due to poor food (lack of meat precisely) there was no huge size difference between average men and women (certainly not like nowadays), meaning that a well trained lady with the right weapon could have little problems kicking her equally tiny and skinny male enemies asses. In Korea this was mostly prevalent during 3 Kingdoms and Goryeo era, with bow and short sword being the usual weapons of choice for female warriors.

- you can already guess what happened next - Joseon era came and ruined it all, among with most other women's rights. So now SK's female archers are doing pretty much the archeological work of rediscovering the martial arts tradition they once lost.

- the link provided by Kiara is right: archery style in Ancient Korea was closer to that one in China (who themselves picked up a lot of pointers from their aggressive nomadic neighbors like Manchu) with thumb ring, size/shape of bows, technique etc.

- while in Japan, perhaps due to geographical isolation, traditional archery is ENTIRELY different not just from Korean/Chinese, but pretty much everything else - no thumb rings, size and shape of the bow, gripping/drawing/shooting technique etc are all unique to the point that even people well-trained in other countries styles would be totally hopeless when they tried to replicate it for the first time. There was also a hilarious anecdotal story of my dad and his like 20 apprentices (all highly athletic huge men and NOT a newbies) visiting Japanese archery school and being collectively humbled by a bunch of middle school girl students there who basically wiped the floor with guests in a friendly competition^^

- which brings us to the point that Japanese bow and archery technique is VERY female user-friendly, even if the girl in question is like 150cm tall and below 40kg - as long as she diligently trains with a qualified teacher since childhood. And yes, this sport is indeed crazily popular over there among school girls atm.

- re: other weapons in Japan - I was slightly corrected that there were actually more female warriors in Ancient Japan than it's widely known and female cavalry soldiers with naginata glaives were 100% a thing, with horses and length of the weapon helping to even their chances in battle against slightly stronger men. Unlike in Joseon, this tradition declined more gradually with cold weapons becoming less and less common for everyone, so Japanese female warriors turned into athletes over time with minimal struggle unlike their Korean counterparts.

- also my dad...

Aaand I was cut off 1 sentence before the finish, as usual)))

... also my dad fiercely loathes Joseon period for being "boring, inauthentic and regressive in all possible aspects", so all of you gat haters have a kindred soul in him^^

I enjoyed what you wrote about the East Asian traditional female archery so much but also saddened because of the erasure of this history. Thank you for taking the time to write this.

@dncingemma you're welcome! I also had fun learning and writing it, while my father got a great birthday gift by being able to share some of his professional knowledge with me))) If it wasn't a phone talk I bet the lecture would've last many hours more... who do you think I got my wordiness from?^^

Sad indeed, esp since any historical and otherwise records from pre-Joseon era are already scarce to begin with. At least basic technique was still preserved by male practitioners, so now anyone interested has something to start relearning from - only skills with zero demand are truly lost forever.

@gikata As always, I appreciate your knowledge and enthusiasm. I always enjoy reading your posts, especially the very informative ones on what I consider totally insipid Chinese pop music (sorry--my old school Motown and rhythm and blues upbringing still determines my tastes).

But, as far as female archery, I must respectfully and cordially disagree that the fact there women warriors in Goryeo Korea and ancient Japan constitutes an archery "tradition." First there is the specific point about the origins of Olympic women's target archery, which dates more from nineteenth century England. As you point out, the social circumstances of the gender benighted Joseon era prevented Korean women's participation.
Also I have noted as a fan of Olympic sports that though S. Korean men have been very good in Olympic archery, they have not been nearly as dominant as S. Korean women. So appeals to ancient traditions are not a good explanation of women's success. (Not saying you were making this argument--just defending my point that tradition is not really a factor compared to 1980s youth encouragement.

But, archery aside, let me go way far afield and say the idea of what constitutes a tradition is more than just semantic quibble to me, because in order for "traditional" to be a meaningful explanation of modern circumstances, I feel it has to be kept alive in some way through generations--there are have to be active forces and institutions that encourage it. Something that is believed in or practiced in the past just doesn't lie dormant as part of a cultural gene pool.

I'm in fact very skeptical of tradition as the main explanation for a lot of things in modern national cultures, because of the power of global corporate capitalism to shape societies, and also to really go way off topic, because invented "traditions" are often appealed to by authoritarian dictators such as Putin, Xi, and Kim, not to mention would be authoritarians in the U.S!

@hacja well, female rifle snipers are also often doing better than their male peers (let's just say I know this from competent and reliable sources) - they're said to be more patient and precise overall. Why is another question and I'm not sure I can answer it. You're right it's certainly not long-largely-lost tradition of pre-Joseon archery that is responsible for SK girls team breaking records left and right while men's does not fare equally well - if that was the case, it would've been men winning because they were the ones who had access to said practice all these centuries. I do think there is something important hidden there - perhaps a genetic predisposition formed many generations ago, which SK men kinda lost by focusing too much on their scholarly achievements and ignoring arms workout days?))) Joseon women certainly did not lack physical exercise thanks to daily house chores, from what I know...

and also to really go way off topic

Pls lets' not. That direction of our previously fun and innocent discussion and especially human-skinned reptiloids you mentioned are NOT what I'd like to talk about here on DB or anywhere else without developing murderous mood for real. Which I have more than enough of offline, tyvm...

@gikata,
Most of Korea's official history was written by Confucian Scholars centuries later—biased as heck, especially towards women.
3 Kingdom era: Samguk Saji by Kim Busik, a Confucian scholar.
Goryeo - The Goryeosa by Confucian Scholars.
Joseon - Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty by Confucian Scholars.
Given their freedom, women could have been proficient in archery during the 3 kingdoms and the Goryeo era, but we will never know.

Waaa... 😱😱😱 I love ALL your answers Gikata. I vote for all of the above. 👌👏👏👏

If my long-dusted knowledge of Latin is correct (it's been 15+ years!), @hacja simply used the plural form of that word)))

@hacja: Thank you for teaching me a new word!
I looked it up! Sorry for being lazy.
“ Sagittarii is the Latin term for archers. The term sagittariorum in the title of an infantry or cavalry unit indicated a specialized archer regiment”.

@sicarius,
That was fun, but those threads took forever to load, so I gave up. LOL
I hope you are doing well.

I felt that was a great visual shorthand showing just how much he loved her and that he knew just how much was at stake for both their lives.

@9TailedVixen True, true. Also somehow that Joseon story had a bigger impact on me. 😄

@seeker I was pissed that PD-nim and Writer-nim left that to episode 14. WTF? Should have shown it earlier for context!

@9TailedVixen How the story was progressing I was quite sure that we would have a flashback in episode 6. Then I thought okay latest by episode 8. But it was too less, too late. *smh*

Honestly, if they had put it as episode 8, the drama would've been even better as people would have cause to root for the OTP.

@9TailedVixen I honestly wanted to like the drama much more than I eventually did because it seemed like a good mix of romance and supernatural. The toxic coworkers, 2FL and gardener psycho became too much "plot" amounting to nothing. A longer Joseon flashback or preferably two timelines shown concurrently would have made it a masterpiece.

It was amusing viewing but it would have had some depth too if PD-Nim and Writer-Nim did what you listed out.

That series also introduced me to Rowoon and Jo Bo-A so it wasn't a complete waste. I like watching both of them in dramas. Always entertaining.

@9TailedVixen 💯 spot on. Amusing viewing indeed. I knew both leads from earlier but if it was your introduction I'd say well done. 😂

I think Rowoon is underrated as an actor. He's miles better than Cha Eun Woo at emoting and has the potential to become an excellent actor if he keeps working at his craft.

Jo Bo-A, on the other hand, is very good. She's different in every role I see her take.

Both of them tend to choose dramas that I like watching too so that's a plus.

@9TailedVixen 💯 Rowoon is much better and he has been working quite hard. We will probably just have one drama before his enlistment. I'm sure he'll do well after he comes back from the military.

Jo Bo-ah is practically a veteran now. 🤭 She's really good. I'm looking for to see her in Hong Rang with Lee Jae-wook and Kim Jae-wook. 😊

I have a nagging feeling that Rowoon is quietly feminist. His choices of roles and dramas over his career seems to back this up.

The biggest clue is him choosing to star in TOMORROW. But all his other dramas also are quite progressive (even DESTINED WITH YOU) with regards to FLs and themes related to women.

So I happily watch his dramas.

@9TailedVixen I do think your feeling is correct. 😊👌 Heck, he even did that cameo in A Time Called You. Two popular MLs Ahn Hyo-seop and Rowoon playing a couple in a mainstream drama must have taken quite a bit of courage. Granted of course Ahn Hyo-seop is Canadian but for both it was quite a risk in SK where even the slightest of things can get one canceled.

By the way did you see Tomorrow. How did you like it.

I have indeed watched TOMORROW and I cried during some of the episodes. The cast, PD-Nim, and Writer-Nim did a really good job of addressing violence against women and misogyny through the drama. I cried during the episode on Comfort Women. The Japanese were really brutal on Korean and Chinese women during World War II.

As a longtime anti-violence against women activist/advocate, I often recommend TOMORROW to folks asking for shows that treat the issue with respect, depth, and with no punches pulled.

@9TailedVixen I don't think Tomorrow can be watched without crying. 😢 I'm amazed that such a drama could be made. They have handled sensitive subjects very respectfully and Rowoon was particularly good in the flashback.

You're flattering me too much, but thank you)))

P.S. I was a bit shocked at the amount of notifs when I opened the site just now lol.

You're welcome)))

They're mostly focused on night scenes rn, so it should be a little less hot. Then again, those are action scenes in full armor (well, with shorts underneath lol).

He survives the heat despite being in costumes because he wears shorts underneath. 😅

@jillian I do love this chain of logic we have here, it can potentially lead to so many forbidden exciting places^^ Should we make a bet whether he'll scold fans for making and sharing those pics in his next stream?

😂😂😂 that may happen @gikata

🫶

… to find ways to extract clear and crisp audio for such dramas due to all the factors, but they find ways to do it— they sort of don’t have an option 😅

At the end of the day, whatever a production crew of a drama/movie/variety show does, it all has to go through the review of the NRTA, China’s media censorship board, before it is released. If a production is lucky, they will get a pass during their first review, but that isn’t always a case. In addition, different production types have different standards and criteria they must meet in order to get a pass— e.g. movies have it the easiest because the government also understands that movies are more for an international audience. A drama production has the choice to decide if they want to apply for their drama production to be strictly a web drama (easier to get a pass with the NRTA), next would be tv dramas (the most critiqued). At the same time, a production can apply to have their drama be both a web drama and a tv drama, but many times, this results in a single drama having different versions of itself— a tv version vs. a web version— and all of the contractual terms that comes with it being as such (i.e. the episode for the web version not being allowed to be uploaded until the episode for the tv version has aired).

I hope this helps!! 😊

I think there is also a growing trend of doing multiple dubs from the get-go - for example, somewhat recent BLOSSOMS SHANGHAI had two - in Mandarin and Shanghainese. Ofc only big budget and ambitious productions could afford that. I also watched a mainland/Hong Kong collab movie few years ago with mixed cast who self-dubbed Mandarin and Cantonese versions of it in their respective languages.

@gikata
Yes, I agree!! There are the rare dramas wherein there will be 2 versions, each version featuring a different dialect. I remember that Huang Xuan did a drama a few years ago— even before Blossoms Shanghai— wherein there were 2 different versions, each version featuring a different dialect. I think this must be possible because it’s either a super big production with a higher budget or the drama has a way smaller cast and more of the budget can be used elsewhere after cast salaries.
It makes sense that a duo project such as one that features a cast from Hong Kong and Mainland China would have 2 dubbed versions

@bebeswtz at the time I wasn't aware of the dubbing issue in c-media so I though it was a normal practice... It was not a blockbuster movie tho - an action thriller with moderate budget and kinda famous actors/PD, but nothing grand. I don't even remember which version I saw, not being as knowledgeable as I am now, ouch))) Probably Cantonese one - iirc, events of the movie happened in HK so that was the main option for international release with Mandarin as a DVD bonus...

My gosh, thank you both so much for taking the time to offer these detailed explanations providing so much context. Lots to digest here. If and when you have time to offer up your shortlist of actors who you watch because they consistently use their own voice, I'd be schooled once again.

And thank you for explaining the byzantine process by which productions are certified for broadcast. This helps me understand why so many productions seem hung up after the filming has been completed, but they sit on the shelf (literally) and never see the light of day. Also helps me understand better why so many actors get crosswise of authorities for so-called tax violations.

Finally, lordy I have enough trouble with one language. My hat is off to you for facility with so many languages. I consider that to be a portion of the brain I was born without and have always been in awe of people who are multi (not to mention multi multi) lingual. I bow to you!

3. I... am dumbfounded, honestly! I don't understand how a country as huge as China, with such a huge diversity in landscapes (so so beautiful!), films most of their historical/mythological dramas inside in front of cgi screens??? It feels so strange...
It must be a money issue, right? I can't find any other explanation for not using those amazing natural scapes they have!
At the same time, they seem to spend so much on costumes and jeweleries... So is money an issue or is it not??

@cliosservant1846
No problem! I’m always happy to help where I can, I just hope I don’t sound arrogant or like a know-it-all, because I truly DON’T know it all, and what do know is just from years of observing and gathering information. C-Ent. and all its parts is such a mammoth that keeps changing from time to time, so I’m also still always learning new things, too! 😊

@midnight A lot of the indoor CGI is used on mythology themed dramas in order to create scenes that nature doesn’t really offer 😅
E.g. A fight scene between characters wherein they are fighting in or on clouds or with mythological creature.
It actually costs MORE time and money to film using CGI—since it requires the cast and filming crew to really use their imagination, be really spot on in technique, and it also takes longer to edit, and longer work means more hours which means more pay and money spent—so it’s definitely not a money issue.
Haha I actually find their props—especially for clothing and jewelry— to be very touch-n-go for me, personally. Sometimes, a drama can be a big budgeted one, but then I’d look at their costumes and props and wonder what went wrong there 😅

@bebeswtz , @cliosservant1846
It also should be noted that few last years shooting at outdoor locations practice was hindered by covid and now things are slowly becoming less artificial again (of course, only for productions rich and dedicated enough to bother with it). I recall a hit drama from 7-8 years ago, before all that, being criticized heavily for overuse of CGI in outdoor scenes with no reasonable explanation provided why they needed so many shots of basic fake forest etc instead of just driving a bit to the nearest real one)))

P.S. I'll work on that list, give me time until next Friday or so^^

Ahh right!

Omg, @midnight , sorry, forgot to tag you as well!

Which is this "fighting in or on clouds" drama. How very exciting!! 🤩😃

Spot on T - that's the Hannibal guy. 😂

I didn't know (or I forgot) he had so much hype. Sorry if I offended fans. LOL

Don’t be sorry T.
I regard Rupert Murdoch as one of Earth’s public enemies and the fact that Hugh Jackman and Nicole Kidman agreed to be the godparents of his third set of kids made me write both off. Any personal association with that vile and pernicious capitalist who has propped up bigots for decades is a step too far for me to take so no dice.

@enriquequierecagar nonono, no offense! I’m sorry to give that impression, not at all.

How unfortunate((( That was literally me watching that RESIDENT EVIL movie for LJG's tiny role, but at least he WAS in the international cut, if with barely any screentime/lines and insultingly to his talent flat character...

Yeah, I wonder whether his work is going to be ruined for a lot of people by his death. He was also in Parasite, which I've been afraid to watch in spite of how wonderful I know it is. (Speaking of bleak!) The ending of My Mister is so redemptive and hopeful that I hope someday you will be able to watch it. (Honestly, since it is a TV show and no one will know, you can just skip to the resolution episodes and deduce the problems they were solving! Ha ha!)

I was going to say to watch both 15 and 16, but you could really just watch the 16th episode from the start. I know it won't give you the time to learn to love all the characters, but most of the backstory is effectively explained. There is still a little suspense left, but only a little. Essentially this is a show about the ideal vs. the real in this Confucian society. The premise of the show is that this young woman, who is a temp worker in the office, bugs her boss's phone as part of a shady deal to earn money. She has inherited debt and a disabled grandmother. When she bugs the phone, she learns what kind of person the boss is and develops a crush on him. But...I think it's the kind of crush where you also want to be like the person. Anyway, you could do worse than to cry a lot through the last episode of this show.

@toomuchtv thank you ☺️