I have a newfound respect for Ha Sun and Minister Lee. That conversation about trust was just awesome. Ha Sun saw what I didn't: M. Lee is a good man who had to do bad things and feels horrible about it. M. Lee was afraid to trust for fear of creating another Yi Heon, but Ha Sun proved just how different he and his lookalike truly are. And I realized the dowager does know Ha Sun is a fake. I wasn't sure if she knew because I don't recall it ever being expressly mentioned that she did know. I guess that's the info Court Lady Kim passed on to her. There couldn't be 2 worse people to have this info than M. Shin and the dowager queen. And why does it take so long to behead someone?! You can't give someone like Shin time to escape cause you know the weasel will find a way. The final 2 episodes are going to be nail-biting to say the least.
On a side note: I read in some article that the cartoon drawing of Eunuch Jo from several episodes ago was actually done by Yeo Jin-gu. Apparently he is artistic in more ways than one. :D

For anyone who missed @fanwho's dandy translation of an interview with Writer-nim Kim Sin-duk:
http://www.dramabeans.com/2019/03/open-thread-593/#comment-3417359

The queen dowager says that Lord Yoo was doomed the moment the king killed her father and her son.

Machiavelli: "Men should be either treated generously or destroyed, because they take revenge for slight injuries - for heavy ones they cannot.”

Too bad he didn't say anything about women like the Queen Dowager.

For me, this show is simply wasted potential. Realistic tension and conflict has been tossed out the window. A show that murdered a king halfway through donned and a pair of rose-colored glasses, with the result that is the equivalent of a limp noodle.

Culminating in this episode this show neutered all of its main characters. It turned a wonderfully grey and calculating Minister Lee into a suddenly sentimental "hero". It made Clown complicit in all of Lee's misdeeds yet still somehow also the most honorable man in the world. The Queen, who used to have a story of her own, is now only defined by her relationship with Ha Sun.

You're telling me Lee, an ultra-patriotic zealot who murdered his own monarch for country, is going to hand over the government to someone just because he's really nice? Lee knows better than anyone that nice just won't cut it. But we never get to see that. Because no matter what Ha Sun does, no matter how foolish, naive, or selfish he acts, everything turns out pretty much OK in the end. I'm sure this week's cliffhanger will also be wrapped up in a neat, unearned bow.

And is Ha Sun really better than King Cray, as Lee said? Has Ha Sun gone through any of the same trails, had any of the same struggles? No. It may seem like it, but when you really look at it, he's had no real consequences to any of his actions, never really had his moral groundwork tested.

The acting is fantastic, directing spot on, music great, all of those things. but the writing just isn't cutting it for me. There was a much better story to tell here, and I am sad we won't get to see it.

Slowly, Minister Lee sinks to his knees. He says reverently, “Your Majesty, I wont be afraid anymore. As your loyal servant, I will trust and serve you. Please forgive all my misdeeds.”

As soon as Minister Lee went to his knees I knew he was screwed. You just can't jinx things like that in a kdrama.

Of course, if you checked the history, you have known all along.

I really love the development of Haseon and Yi Kyu's relationship in this story. They have really gone so far. From Yi Kyu forcefully kidnapping Haseon as a decoy to simply die for Yi Heon, to Yi Kyu slowly seeing Haseon's potential as a King, and finally recognizing Haseon as his true King and giving him his full respects.

The development their characters achieved in this episode really made me emotional. Shin Chi Soo thinks he can poison Haseon's mind by telling him of Yi Kyu's past deeds and asking Haseon to go to his side and he will give Haseon wealth and power, but failing to realize that Haseon went to the palace to seek justice from the people who abused their power, not to gain power to trample on more innocent people.

The look on Yi Kyu's face when Haseon says he still trusts him in spite of everything he has learned. Everything weighs so heavily on Yi Kyu with nobody he can lean on with his heavy burden. Until the previous episode, I still had my doubts whether Yi Kyu truly means when he said he'll protect Haseon with his life, especially with Haseon learning to become more independent. But this episode showed how Yi Kyu now truly means his words. The mutual bow they did is a very powerful scene. When Yi Kyu finally addresses Haseon as "Your Majesty," I truly felt it.

I have a question for everyone.
If this show has a message it is trying to tell, what, to you personally, is that message?

I find it fascinating that people were impressed by and respect Ha Seon and Lee for that conversation, when for me I was left speechless at the mind boggling and horrific moral implications of it.

Namely this implication that Haksan is the product of his circumstances, and that somehow that excuses him.
To me this conversation was not about trust and forgiveness, it was about ignorance. To me, Ha Seon did not see what Haksan had done wrong, he simply forgave him because according to him, Haksan only did such things because of his circumstances. Because of the throne.
"It was not your sin", he said.
He is wrong. It is Haksan's sin. And if it were true forgiveness, Ha Seon would recognise that, instead of seemingly brushing it under the rug because he "understands" what the "throne" can do to a person.
The throne is an inanimate object, and a symbol of power. It cannot sin. It cannot corrupt an individual on its own. It has no soul or self awareness.
Haksan is every bit personally responsible for killing Yi Heon, as the Queen Dowager is for attempted murder, as Yi Geom is for rape, Shin for treason, Yi Heon for abuse and fratricide, and The Clown for adultery. And most of those people, their sins, could also be argued to be a product of their circumstances.

And yet Haksan, Haksan is the one that The Clown blindly trusts. And the show, wants me to believe that this is because the Clown understands, that the Clown, knows that Haksan will not be a threat to him, if he does this.
But the way in which the show went about doing this, puts me so on edge, delves into issues far greater than it has the expertise of handling, and wants me to support this relationship? This, this apparent friendship and trust?
No.
If you will try and pass off Haksan's sins, as simply the pressure of his position, and him trying to do the right thing, then you have to do so for all the other characters, and the Clown himself, OR EXPLAIN WHY NOT.
Or the morals of your story crumble because of the unstable ideas they are based on, and your story itself collapses subsequently, if it hadn't already, which I would argue it had.
I’m fine with redemption arcs. I love them in fact. But this was not a redemption arc.
It was not even grace. It was blindly ignoring someone’s fault for your own sake.

I didn't think it were possible, but somehow this show managed to kill its arguably most important character, three times. Once literally, twice through the actions of other characters that resorted him to nothing.

I really liked the evolution of "My Majesty". Eunuch Jo said it when the Clown came back, the Queen when he was hurt and now Minister Lee. You really could feel their sincerity and how they saw Ha Sun as their King. He really won them by his actions, one by one. When for the King it was the opposite, he lost them one by one because his actions.

I love the respect ha sun has for haksan. Haksan is his teacher and mentor. Ha sun was able to handle the political issues because of his advices and guidance. Ha sun knows haksan enough to not to get upset by haksan's sins. Its not blindly trusting. They went through so many things together. And i think a king needs someone who he can trust otherwise he will probably go crazy because of the uncertainty for his life and burden of the throne. Trust and loyalty is a two way thing. Just as much the one who gives his loyalty protects it the one who obtains it should work to keep it. In case of yi heon, many including lee kyu swore their loyalty to him. But yi heon could not keep it. The keeper should also be worthy of keeping others loyalty. People have their own limits and reapectable people like lee kyu would not want to bear being stomped on for too long.

Killing Yul is the sin i cannot forgive haksan for, but i do understand he wanted to relieve yi heon out of his paranoia. At one point haksan was ready to do anything for him and yi heon ordered him to kill yul. Otherwise the dowager queen will definitely run some plot to dethrone him and make her son the king and herself the real ruler behind the curtain. Many people call haksan a sinner for killing yi heon but choose to ignore the bloodbath yi heon caused and the terror he inflicted on people in the palace and his citizens. While murdering a person is still a crime, haksan probably saved many lives and let the rest to breath with more ease. Its evident under ha sun, palace people live a lot calmer lives. I dont think yi heon was redeemable. even today it takes a lot of counselling, medications and effort from both the addict and people around him to get out of drug addiction. Plus he was quite insane. Those days they only probably knew to tie up a person to prevent self harming and harming others. He was quite a lost case and him being king made things wore and more dangerous. He also wanted to make sure yi heon does not come back like ever dangering ha sun, him and everyone else. Probably was the hardest decision in haksan's life. I like the writing. Its not boring. Doesn't paint anyone as total angels but as humans with inner conflicts and weaknesses and also strengths unique to everyone. Some people want ha sun and so woon to face consequences for their forbidden love. They are aleady facing it with the upcoming rebel and even if they got through it somehow, not being able to have their own child seems like the price they will have to pay. And as a couple with genuine feelings, it is one of the saddest things that can happen to them. It is also something that will weaken ha sun's reign if he managed to reign further, unless they somehow have a child by some miracle.

*sighs*

This show is low-key terrible for my anxiety...

And to think tomorrow is the last episode 😭

It took me 3 nights to finish this 1 episode because it turned me off repeatedly. The moment Ha Sun expressed his respect and solidarity to a child murderer, I lost all my respect for him as the protagonist. I get it if he thinks killing the king is necessary for the benefit of the national. He may have thought about killing the king himself to save his love. But Minister Lee just described the way he poisoned a little kid and our all innocent and angelic protagonist is absolutely fine with it? Oh no, he’s not fine, he’s heartbroken, that Minister Lee had to commit such sins. Wtf?!

Let’s step back. We were never told that Yi Heon gave orders to kill his little brother. We all assumed that happened because he got all crazy paranoid after his brother died. In episode 8, Yi Heon only said, he trusted Minister Lee since he chose him over his brother. That was not admitting he gave orders, just acknowledging his brother died as a means to clear his obstructions. Since that dialogue, I’ve been skeptical whether Minister Lee did it on his own. So was Minister Lee “suffering” from the bruden of carrying out Yi Heon’s orders or did Yi Heon suffer the conscience backlash for something “his people” did for him? When Yi Heon spoke softly to his little brother, and just the fact his brother was not afraid of him yet rather clingy, it seems he wasn’t a bad brother begin with. When Minister Lee described the death of the child so cruelly to Daebi, I’m convinced he was NOT the one suffering from the murder.

My problem with this show is I’m not convinced Minister Lee is a good guy. He may have a more justifiable agenda and his greed is not pronounced by money or power, but he ain’t a good guy, nor is he loyal. So now I’ve confirmed our protagonist is selectively colorblind, and I’ve lost all interest in him as well.
I’d rather see him turn into an antihero than continue his cultish reliance on the Minister. Like, he could learn from Lee and keep the power he attained but give Lee the justice he deserves to pacify the empress dowager. After all, she’s only seeking revenge for her poor son whose death was not Ha Sun’s order. (Btw, she apparently only found out recently because of Lady Kim)

Do something Ha Sun! Anything but sitting around reading with your stolen wife under the protection of a promise-breaking guardian.🤦🏻‍♀️

Part 1 of 4

Thank you for your episode 14 recap, @lollypip. If my comments come across as inconsistent and contradictory (and maybe even a little hypocritical), it's because I am of at least two minds when it comes to CROWNED CLOWN.

Thanks for those beautiful screencaps of Ha Sun and the Queen at the shore. Although the scenery of the seaside is serenely beautiful, I cannot help but be reminded of the rocky outcrop where Haksan stabbed Ha Sun to provide him with a scar, and the Cliff Of Non-Doom where the clown took an arrow in the back. On the surface, the sea is calm, but it is the calm before the storm. Or might this be a metaphor for the plot being at sea?

And then my left brain kicks in and questions how they could have ever traveled to the sea and back within a day, unless the queen galloped on horseback, and even then, the timing just doesn't work for me. (I had exactly the same reaction to Eugene Choi's and Ae-shin's romantic beach scene in MR. SUNSHINE. The logistics simply did not work, IMHO, and no amount of beautiful scenery or meaningful dialogue could change that. Even though Ae-shin herself was absolutely capable of riding for hours like a bat out of hell.) Not to mention the fact that Lord Shin and Prince Jinpyung have spies and minions all over the place who would have captured or assassinated the party in a heartbeat. I just cannot suspend my disbelief.

The scene of the two old intertwined black locust trees is romantically symbolic – but the nagging knowledge that the Queen is someone else's wife negates it. After reading the interview that @fanwho so kindly translated (see link above, and my comments thereon, including musings about Haksan), I think I understand what Writer-nim is trying to say about Ha Sun's falling in love for the first time. It's unfortunate that it has to be with the wife of the man he is impersonating. At the rate things are going, I hope he gets to fall in morally- and socially-acceptable love in the next life. Because, by the mores of his time, it cannot happen in this incarnation. Ever. Worse still, the formerly righteous Queen falls completely out of character and goes along with the romance after she finds out. Both parties end up morally compromised, and that failing sticks in my craw.

Now that I think of it, Writer-nim may have been shooting for Haksan to be akin to King Muryeong's ruthless advisor and first mate, Marshal Hae, in THE KING'S DAUGHTER, SU BAEK HYANG. He proactively did his boss's dirty work with zeal and efficiency in a manner similar to the Chief Royal Secretary's. The difference is that Hae never felt compunction for his deadly methods. Just as Muryeong served the crown and his people with unswerving devotion, Hae did everything in his power to serve, protect, and support his king.

- Continued -

Part 2 of 4

I appreciate what I think Writer-nim is trying to accomplish with Haksan's and Ha Sun's conversation about trust. The scene is touching in what it has to say about trust and loyalty in general. Methinks it comes as too little, too late, however. For me, the bigger issue is that, based on their past actions, neither party's depth of character is truly capable of embodying those ideals. I hate to say it, but both characters are more like plot devices, because when I attempt to look into their depths, I do not see fully-formed, organic beings, but collections of characteristics. More on that below.

As for loyalty and trust, Show suffers from my having recently watched JUMONG, an epic tale of loyalty, sacrifice, and devotion to a higher cause. I am now in the midst of reading Nirvana in Fire in preparation for watching the Cdrama that Beanies raved about when it aired. Mei Changsu is the real deal when it comes to nobility of character and dogged, unswerving loyalty. He engineers the downfall of those responsible for faithlessly slandering and betraying 70,000 loyal souls, not out of vengeance, but to clear their names so their spirits can finally rest. The personal sacrifices he makes along the way... gulp.

Consider another drama that kept me riveted to my seat: REBEL: THIEF WHO STOLE THE PEOPLE. Former slave Amogae and his Noisy Hongs start out as crooks attempting to make a living in a land whose yangban treat its lower classes with immense cruelty. They are not white knights, and neither is younger son Gil-dong as he comes to seek revenge on those who persecuted his family. They're “grey knights” with their hearts in the right place. They know damned well that the BS trumpeted by 99% of the scholars is corrupt, and set out to do something about it on behalf of the little people. The drama has immense heart, and even minor characters are so well drawn that their presence elevates the entire production. REBEL knew from the start what it wanted to say, and never lost sight of it.

- Continued -

Part 3 of 4

Yeo Jin-goo and Kim Sang-kyung have done a fantastic job with what they've been given to work with. It is a testimonial to their expertise and passion that they have breathed so much life into incompletely-drawn characters. Director-nim has likewise done such a great job that it has taken me this long to realize that the emperor is missing his heart, not his clothes. I further suspect that inadequate characterization and plotting has to do with Writer-nim's inexperience. I like what she is trying to accomplish, but have to admit that it is falling short in the execution. Methinks that starting out with a drama remake of such a beloved film was a daunting task for a maiden voyage. Her desire to give hope, by having champions for the little people, is laudable. But without a strong moral and ethical center, it becomes feel-good fluff deficient in spiritual nutrients.

That still leaves us with the scheming villains dogging the King. The Energizer Bunny of Evil, Lord Shin, has a “get thee behind me” moment with Ha Sun when he makes the King an offer the latter flatly refuses – despite the revelation of Yi Heon's fate at the hands of Chief Royal Secretary Lee. Then there's the whole message in a non-poisoned rice ball. The things are too small to fit a file into. LOL! Seriously, Lord Shin is like a bulldog with that underslung jaw of his. Once he clamps onto his prey, he never lets go. Which just ramps up my dismay that he is still breathing, and that his branded heir is now at large on the northern border.

I love the way Haksan goads Daebi into blowing her cool and admitting to putting out hits on the King, Queen, and Lord Yoo in retaliation for the deaths of her own father and son. (Does this make me a bad person?) He plays her like a fiddle. Her look of realization that Lord Shin and Yi Heon had nothing to do with Yul's death is priceless. (From his body language as he says farewell to Yul as the child headed off to exile, I had gotten the sense that the new King fears for his brother's future, but is afraid to say anything.)

- Continued -

Part 4 of 4

As with Lord Shin, I have great misgivings about Daebi being sent off to the West Palace (which sounds like purgatory for disgraced royals), out of sight and personal monitoring by Ha Sun. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, dang it! According to the subtitles I read, Daebi is still within the palace grounds, not outside the gates.

I understand why the Queen tried to persuade her mother-in-law to hie herself to a nunnery. I could imagine the Queen herself doing so, despite her promise to Ha Sun to stay beside him forever. That would be one avenue of repentance for her adultery – but only if all enemies who know of the King's true identity, including Daebi, are neutralized first. Ha Sun is poised to lose his two staunchest supporters, from what I can see. Haksan has resigned to “stabilize the borders.” I can imagine his performing vital “shuttle diplomacy” a la Henry Kissinger in an effort to keep the peace with Nurhaci and the Jurchens. But as of the cliffhanger, that doesn't seem too likely to happen.

Haksan's scene with Woon-shim is truly sad, and filled with foreboding. I posted some late-breaking thoughts on their relationship here:
http://www.dramabeans.com/2019/02/the-crowned-clown-episode-13/#comment-3417085
#alwaysthelasttoknow

With the Minister of War opposing the King, I'm concerned that Ha Sun has no commanders loyal to him when the rebels come strolling through the city gates. (They have not yet entered the palace; control of the capital's four gates is in rebel hands.) Are we going to see a popular uprising against the professional army by untrained commoners carrying farm implements, who will be slaughtered in defense of the King who has been listening their cries for justice?

It's interesting that Prince Jinpyung's forces total 3,000 – a far cry from the 20,000 men he promised the Ming envoy. That lends a whole 'nother level of suspense.

-30-

I saw the intertwined tree on 2D1N :D

The bowing scene between Ha Sun and Ministry Lee just gives me goosebumps. Such beautiful and meaningful scene. This show always makes me sit on the edge

I can only say while watching a sageuk, it's not advisable to judge characters using modern day morals. Honestly, people in the past wouldn't really think twice for selling their kids. Sure they probably feel the same sadness and helplessness, but when they didn't have enough to eat, selling away 1 or 2 kids so that everyone else's hunger can be taken care off, is not such a bad deal.
Likewise, kings and monarchies regardless of nationality wouldn't think twice about killing those whom they deem as a threat to their power. And we see this mentality in many yangban characters. Elitism is very real since centuries ago.
Like someone else pointed out here, the difference here between Lee Kyu and Shin Ji-soo is their intent. Lee believes he's acting for the greater good while it is repeatedly shown that Shin is for self interest.
As for the clown? I have to disagree that he's not inspired by commoners. He knew what and how commoners suffered since he's one himself, and when he realised he's actually able to make a difference he tried. I'd like to think he's like a duckling; Lee Kyu is like the mother thus he keeps relying on Lee.
I do find the Queen bland, and Queen Dowager blatantly one-dimensional in her revenge.