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Six Flying Dragons: Episode 30

by HeadsNo2

Our most cunning young dragon devises an ingenious plan to lure the most secret of secret organizations out of hiding this episode, and by using their own vanity as a weapon, he’s able to poke a few good-sized holes through Nameless’ impenetrable facade. It’s an hour about looking to the future, of realizing one’s dreams and how to make them happen, even though we know in drama speak that when you plan for the future, you may as well be signing your own death warrant. Fate is a cruel mistress that way.

SONG OF THE DAY

Gain – “열두 시가 되면 (Let’s Meet When It Turns Twelve)” [ Download ]

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EPISODE 30 RECAP

After revealing herself to be Cheok Sa-kwang, the girl formerly known as Yoon-rang begs the prince to drink the antidote, swearing that she’ll protect him with her life. He believes her, and takes the proffered cup.

Neither of them know Traitor Baek is, well, a traitor, so they have no idea that he’s going to take the information on Sa-kwang’s identity back to Nameless… until Sa-kwang points out that he wasn’t perturbed when Nameless showed up.

Thinking back, she realizes that Traitor Baek was the one who led them to the spot where they were ambushed, and reacted to the poisoned needle before he saw it. He knew it was coming, she reasons, and Baek realizes there’s no way out but to reach for his sword.

Sa-kwang is much too fast for that though, and in a few swift seconds she’s broken his arm, taken his sword, and cut his throat with it. Just like that, Traitor Baek is no more.

Master Hong fills everyone in on the Cheok family story, explaining how Cheok Jun-gyeong, the original legendary swordsman, passed down his skills to one surviving son. That son became the grandfather of both Cheok Sa-kwang and her now deceased brother, and poured his training into Sa-kwang when said brother went off into the world seeking fame and fortune.

At the same time, Sa-kwang tells her story to Prince Jungchang, explaining how she never liked the training even though she’d submit to it. That all changed the day Jang Sam-bong’s disciple came looking for a match against her grandfather.

He won the match fairly and her grandfather died, but a young Sa-kwang couldn’t control her emotions and killed the disciple in return. She tells the prince that she struggled more with having killed him than her grandfather dying, and that it’s haunted her until this day.

She had planned to leave the sword forever that day, but out of her love for Prince Jungchang, she killed three men to protect him. And she’d do it again, so she urges the prince to be strong. In return, she’ll be his sword and shield.

Yooksan returns to where he last met Prince Jungchang to find Traitor Baek and two other unknown men dead. He has Jukryong with him, who identifies the fatal wound on Traitor Baek’s throat as a signature of Goksan Swordsmanship. But he doubts their man Cheok In-kwang could’ve killed them when he was already dying himself.

Bang-won finds Boon-yi after investigating the loss of the men he sent to capture Traitor Baek, and it turns out she didn’t tell the boys how she got the information she did from Cheok In-kwang.

She tells Bang-won how the code her mother used way back when still worked in the present, which only convinced her further that her mother wasn’t kidnapped by Nameless. In fact, Boon-yi is now certain that her mother is an active member of Nameless.

“Why are you just saying this now?” Bang-won asks. With a deep breath, she tells him it’s because she knows her mother is now their enemy, and it frightens her. Much like Moo-hyul, Bang-won tsks at Boon-yi for her crestfallen spirit, wanting ol’ General Boon-yi back.

In turn, she asks him about his sudden interest in Nameless, since he’d been preoccupied with following Jung Mong-joo around before. He explains that he’s having to trust Poeun because Jung Do-jeon does, and is now determined to root out Nameless. It all starts with finding out who Ji Cheon-tae is. (I’d mistakenly thought it was a place and not a person last episode, my bad!)

Bang-won finds a self-satisfied Ha Ryun and offers to share what he knows about Nameless in return for him doing the same. He knows Ha Ryun didn’t follow Nameless all these years out of loyalty to Lee In-gyeom, which Ha Ryun admits is true.

Then, chuckling, he agrees with Bang-won’s assessment that he can’t stand his own curiosity. “What is it that you cannot stand?” he returns in kind, only for Bang-won to give a patented answer: “Injustice. I cannot stand injustice.”

But Ha Ryun knows that can’t be it, and guesses correctly that what Bang-won really can’t stand is feeling powerless. This strikes a chord with Bang-won, who remembers Minister Hong’s prediction regarding his fear of weakness. And that fear is its own weakness, though at least Ha Ryun agrees to drop the matter and work together with him.

With their two heads combined, they begin to work through what they know. Ji Cheon-tae must be from either Jukryong’s camp or Cho-young’s, since they’re the only ones who could provide the information Nameless uses to control and manipulate people.

Looking back, Bang-won now wonders whether Nameless was behind Jukryong giving him that free bit of intel on General Choi, since nothing is ever free with him. But their biggest break comes when Ha Ryun explains just how much time (three years) it would’ve taken someone to learn to forge Jo Joon’s handwriting for the three letters he never sent out.

There is the possibility that both Biguk Temple and Hwasadan were just hired by Nameless, Ha Ryun reasons, which gives Bang-won a lightbulb moment when it comes to Ji Cheon-tae. He leaves without sharing the details.

He tells Boon-yi and Moo-hyul that Nameless must be losing their minds right now trying to find out who sent the assassins, since they’d have no idea whether they were sent for the prince or Traitor Baek. He plans to use this against them and enlists Master Hong to stand in for the blacksmith who hired out the assassins to them, that way when Nameless comes looking, they’ll find him.

Jo Joon is outraged when Bang-won tells him that his father has chosen to support Prince Jungchang for the throne, angrily demanding to know why the general is dragging his feet when it comes to assuming the throne. He’s not convinced, even when Bang-won tells him that it’s all so Jung Mong-joo will come to support their cause.

Speaking of, we find Jung Mong-joo with Prince Jungchang as he vows that he has nothing to do with Nameless. Unaware that Sa-kyung is listening in, he lights up like a Christmas tree when the prince agrees to take the throne, and is all to happy to swear his undying loyalty to him.

Bang-won ends up eavesdropping when Jo Joon and Officer Nam go to Jung Do-jeon to demand answers. He soothes them by claiming that he’s using a five point plan to convince Jung Mong-joo, otherwise known as ohchik, which soothes Bang-won’s fears as well.

Eldest son Bang-woo ends up overhearing their shouting match inside, and bursts in the second he hears their talk of making his father king. Having no idea that was their original intent, he’s outraged at the idea that they’re setting out to make his father a traitor.

At least he seems pleased when his father claims the opposite is true, and that they’ll focus on Prince Jungchang. Guess they’re going to put off telling him the truth for as long as they can.

Lee Seong-gye, Jung Do-jeon, and Jung Mong-joo are all who’s needed to throw their support in for Prince Jungchang. Prince Chang is dethroned and sent away with exile, along with his father.

Prince Jungchang is crowned and becomes KING GONGYANG, while Sa-kyung is left to… trim her nails? It makes sense once she emerges dressed in men’s garb, unable to be more than a bodyguard to her one true love now that he’s king.

Cho-young sends her head Amazonian spy to Master Hong’s Blacksmithery, and it’s hilarious how he thinks he has to disguise his voice in order to play the part convincingly. She leaves with their ledger in hand, which of course was placed there by Bang-won.

Of course, they weren’t expecting a second party from Biguk Temple to arrive looking for the same ledger, and Master Hong is quick to tell them that someone from Hwasadan already came and took it.

Gab-boon takes this answer back to Bang-won, though just the fact that both parties showed up doesn’t mean they’re part of Nameless, since they could’ve just been hired by them to retrieve the record. He plans to wait and draw Nameless out.

Jukryong reports to Yooksan that Hwasadan got ahold of the ledger first, and believes that they’re agents of King Gongyang. But Yooksan isn’t at all concerned as he invites Ji Cheon-tae in… who turns out to be none other than Cho-young.

She’s just as surprised to see Jukryong as he is to see her, and Yooksan gleefully introduces them to each other. Neither knew that they were working for the same organization until now, which is why Yooksan wasn’t concerned about the ledger. He knew Cho-young would bring it to him.

Yooksan opens it to find a letter from Bang-won inside, intentionally addressed to whoever would read it from Nameless as he baits them on their failed “break the ash flower’s stem before it blooms” plan. Just like Bang-won wanted, Yooksan reels at the letter, while Jukryong wonders if there’s a spy in their midst.

Da-kyung is yet another disappointed supporter when she finds out that Lee Seong-gye won’t be assuming the throne, and when Bang-won tells her it’s his father and Jung Do-jeon’s wish, she replies that he shouldn’t be such a yes-man when it comes to those two.

And though Jung Do-jeon and Jung Mong-joo worked together to make the crowning happen, there’s an air of tension between the two after. Poeun is determined to make his colleague give up on his grand plan, while Jung Do-jeon is just as determined to convince him.

Lee Seong-gye hosts a celebratory dinner at Dohwa Manor, and Ji-ran even gets to crack wise about assassins waiting in the wings, considering how their last banquet turned out. He’s invited Bang-won, Bang-ji, and Moo-hyul, having to reassure the latter two that yes, he wants them to sit at the table with him, and yes, it’ll be okay.

It’s a great honor for them, which Jung Do-jeon recognizes by raising his glass in a toast to an end to the turbulent times they’ve been living in. Everyone’s excited at the thought of this regime change bringing peace and prosperity, and poor Ji-ran gets ribbed for declaring that he’d like to write a poem once peaceful times are upon them.

Young-kyu’s manlier dream is to be remembered in history, while Jung Do-jeon’s is to leave a record behind for future generations. Should peace come, he wants to spend all his time writing books so that everything he’s learned can be kept and read for centuries to come.

Afterward, Bang-ji calls Moo-hyul out on murmuring under his breath during the whole “What’s your dream?” exchange, since he’d been preparing an answer should anyone have called on him. (Awwwwww.) It only takes the gentlest of prodding from Boon-yi for him to open up, but even then, he just says he’s already told Bang-won.

Bang-won remembers that moment, and how Moo-hyul said he’d be his bodyguard so that he could witness the moment Bang-won changed the world for the better and be satisfied.

It’s Bang-ji’s turn next, and he admits that his is to make Boon-yi’s dream come true and to find their mother. Boon-yi turns the question to the last holdout, Bang-won, who flushes from embarrassment when asked. “I want to make the people smile, and protect all of your dreams.”

As for the how, Bang-won says it’ll be through helpful politics, which everyone knows is a surefire way to make people happy. Bang-ji thinks he’ll achieve his dream, and everyone smiles. These guys need to be together more.

It’s not long before Yooksan comes calling on Bang-won, which is just what the latter wanted. Yooksan is under the belief that they got one of their Nameless captives to spill the beans about the ash flower plan, and tells Bang-won to stay in the shallow pool where he belongs.

He drops a letter for him and plans to leave with that, only to be stopped when Bang-won calls the code phrase after him: “He who was not there in the beginning exists forever. He who is nameless shall never disappear.” Does he think they also wrung that from the captive?

Yooksan is wary of Bang-won’s motives even after hearing this, guessing that his aim is to sow discord within Nameless by getting them to suspect each other as possible traitors. That’s exactly what Bang-won wants, and he gets it when he mentions a specific name: “How much do you trust Ji Cheon-tae?”

That name gets under Yooksan’s skin, since there’s no possible way he’d know all these things without there being a spy. He brings the issue up with Ji Cheon-tae/Cho-young herself, and charges her with finding and plugging the information leak happening on her end.

She turns to Yeon-hee as the first possible suspect, which is a consequence I’d be surprised if Bang-won thought of. Telling her that she’ll remove her from her current assignment, Cho-young’s last task for Yeon-hee is that she find out what Jung Mong-joo and Jung Do-jeon are planning by tomorrow.

So I was wrong to doubt Bang-won, since he not only thought of Yeon-hee’s involvement, but counted on it and her to report back to him whatever Cho-young said. He tells her to include the word Maengdo in her report tomorrow, and that if Cho-young responds by mentioning Maengdo Chilyak, then it means she’s Nameless.

Yeon-hee’s first concern is that Cho-young might have found out about this Maengdo Chilyak another way, only for Bang-won to smile and shake his head. “That’s not possible. It’s just a term I made up.” Genius!

Bang-won arranges all his father’s men to lie in wait for Yeon-hee to give them confirmation of her Nameless status after her meeting with Cho-young. If they receive it, they’ll ambush and arrest Cho-young.

Yeon-hee tells Jung Do-jeon about Bang-won’s plan, and he tells her of his plan to meet with Jung Mong-joo and convince him using Ohshik, his five point plan.

But somehow, no one’s noticed Cho-young hiding in the cave, eavesdropping on their conversation. She comes upon Yeon-hee in the nearby forest, deliberately avoiding the trap Bang-won’s set, and asks her where and when Jung Do-jeon will meet Jung Mong-joo today.

Yeon-hee claims she didn’t hear exactly where, which Cho-young knows to be a lie. She even tells Yeon-hee so, moments before her Amazonian warriors surround her with swords drawn. “I will give you one last chance,” Cho-young proclaims. “What is Maengdo Chilyak?”

And that’s Yeon-hee’s proof that Cho-young is Ji Cheon-tae, an agent of Nameless.

Bang-ji grows nervous when Yeon-hee doesn’t show up for her scheduled meeting, but Bang-won is the one to go marching into the square to call on his men to come out of hiding.

Yeon-hee is bound and gagged to be carried away, while Cho-young makes preparations to go to Jung Do-jeon and Jung Mong-joo’s meeting place. She doesn’t stay gagged for long, and tells all the Amazonians who Nameless is, and why it’s bad that their leader is a part of it.

It seems like she might be able to sway them, but she still gets some added help in the form of Bang-won & Co. when they come to save her. Bang-won tells them that they were unwitting puppets of Nameless, and Yeon-hee adds fuel to the flames by making the girls realize they’ve been fooled.

The one who doesn’t believe Yeon-hee gets cut down by their leader in a moment of decision, and she’s quick to proclaim that they are not Nameless to Bang-won. But they don’t release Yeon-hee.

Bang-won rushes off toward Jung Do-jeon’s meeting place after a tip from Yeon-hee, where the worst Cho-young is doing is eavesdropping on their conversation.

She’s interrupted by a sword being held to her neck, and turns to find Bang-ji on the other end of it. Bang-won saunters in and asks her if she’ll kill herself, only for Cho-young to spit that that’s only for the grunts.

The next room over, the scholars’ conversation goes uninterrupted, and Bang-won is able to listen in. Jung Do-jeon talks about how the king of his new country should be nothing more than a flower on a tree whose roots are made up of Confucian scholars and appointed officials.

He wants to limit the king’s power so that the only position he can appoint is that of prime minister, leaving Jung Mong-joo wondering what the king can do. Bang-won is likewise stunned by the words coming out of Jung Do-jeon’s mouth, even though Poeun is still rapt with attention.

Jung Do-jeon’s next edict for the new king will be that no royal family members can participate in politics, and it’s only when Bang-won staggers back that the weight of this comes crashing down on him.

The dream he just shared suddenly comes flooding back to him as he realizes that he won’t be able to participate in politics should his father become king.

And Ha Ryun’s voice comes back to him then, reiterating his worst fear: that of being powerless.

 
COMMENTS

It was strangely difficult to watch that last scene without a modern perspective, since all the reforms Jung Do-jeon talks about sound perfectly sane and normal to those of us enjoying the comforts of the 21st century. I found myself watching Bang-won’s shocked reactions almost impatiently, unable to comprehend why he looked like he’d been punched in the stomach while Jung Mong-joo was taking the progressive ideas in stride.

But then I realized that it wasn’t the progressiveness that had Bang-won so taken aback, since he’s had a pretty good idea of just how revolutionary Jung Do-jeon’s cause was from the start. When it came to land reform, nepotism, and a checks and balances system, Bang-won was chomping at the bit to spill blood in order to get things done faster. So far, the only force that’s been holding him back has been Jung Do-jeon, and his seemingly endless wealth of patience. If that’s gone, then what?

So now, I’m beginning to see how their relationship might begin to fracture, and that’s discounting how much history is a spoiler. We’ve seen them discuss the New Joseon plan in detail, but never before have we (or Bang-won) heard Jung Do-jeon’s plan for checking the king’s power. Even if it all sounds so familiar, since the basic tenants he’s talking about, with the king being the decorative flower while scholars and officials make up the roots, is exactly what the secret society in Tree With Deep Roots believed. If this is a prequel, and it is, then Jung Do-jeon is setting up the foundation for what would become Joseon and a climate where such an organization exists solely to reroute the king’s power.

The reason why Bang-won is so affected by this part of Jung Do-jeon’s plan and not any other is because it means he’ll have no position, no power, and no ability to enact the change he seeks. I’ll be the first to admit that his dream doesn’t at all sound like him, and the idea that he wants to make the people smile seems like a dream a Disney princess would have. Granted, said princess wouldn’t say that they’d do so through politics, but the optimistic idea is the same. And I don’t know why it’s more shocking that Bang-won is so idealistic, when we saw him grow up and have seen the side of him that screams for justice at any cost.

And that all goes to say that I’m thrilled with this new twist Dragons has thrown in, since Bang-won had been kind of sizzling on the back burner for what feels like too long. It’s effectively renewed my interest in his character and struggle, even if he’ll have to do the bulk of that from within—only he’ll be able to tell whether he’s been in this for the cause itself, or for the power he thought was waiting on the other side. But if it means him executing more daring plans in the future, I’m down like a clown, as they definitely don’t say.

 
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Tags: Byun Yo-han, featured, Kim Myung-min, Shin Se-kyung, Six Flying Dragons, Yoo Ah-in

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how could you jeong do jeong, he is trying to size power for himself. The lee family will simply be his flower . King having no power.

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A Constitutional Monarchy is really that bad?

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or it didn't belong in that era of Confucianism?

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i don't know if it's bad or not.cause we don't know what happen if JDJ win against BW. but what I hate is the fact that he uses the lee family to achieve what he wants, and end up making them as a puppet/decoration...the fact he doesn't tell the truth his plans before asking their cooperation is already a bad move and now he wants to weaken them and excluded them from politics,he's crazy..in earlier ep, there's a quote he said that he uses LSG..

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i think you see for some reason JDJ as someone who wants power and to control
i think he chose LSG (and not the whole lee) bc they share the same goal and ideals
he doesnt want to use him he wants to work with him towards the same goal
for LSG being powerless as long as the citizent are protected is NOT a problem it is fro LBW but not LSG and not his eldest sons who follow him
the only ine to not share his ideals is LBW who would make his own way of ruling
but LSG is not used he is a participant and that why the both of them later preferred the 8th son to LBW
to me JDJ is not as scary as LBW
and LBW wanted to be remembered as a good king therefore made progress for the ppl but if they would have chalenged him in a revolt he would have killed his citizens without thinking twice
this is the way of a tyrant and unlike his brother he would have never ivven up his throne to his brother
i know he later gave up to his son but it was in name only LD was a puppet king for his father

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i'm rewatching dragons and for the first time reading recaps of this show.
Only now i realized that lee bang won here, is the same lee bang won in TWDR.
I didn't pay too much attention to the time sequence and thought TWDR was yeaaaars later after dragons. can't believe this lee bang won would be the hateful lee bang won who made Lee Do as puppet king

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There are many countries today with a constitutional monarchy (Europe for example).
Look at England, the monarchs is separated from the government. The prime minister and the ministers are running the country.

Prime Minister: head of the government.
Cabinet: senior members of the government (20).
Other Ministers: chosen by the prime minister from the house of commons/lords (97).
Total members: 119.

This is the kind of government that Sambong was dreaming about. That is his justification for planning the revolution.

A government that is run by qualified and talented ministers and that is why he is trying to make changes with the civil exams. Instead of the corrupt ministers permitting their own sons and people to enter Dodang without taking the civil exams and taking over their positions like an inheritance. He is trying to change it so everyone must take the civil exams no matter who they are before entering Dodang.

An era of Confucianism is what makes it very challenging in comparison to today's Constitutional Monarchy. The social class system only allows the noble class to have an education and take the civil exams.

We can only guess if it was going to work or not because it didn't happen.
Maybe Bang-won's ideal government of Absolute Monarchy was what the newborn Joseon needed at the time.

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@shirayukihime
I love your passion, if only it was not so one sided we could've gotten into some interesting debates.

Take a deep breath, it's ok. The Lee family did survive and wrote Goryeo's history.

Drama:
In the beginning there was a lowly, poor, powerless, scholar named Sambong. He is seen stealing a poor man's lunch (sharing without permission). We quickly found out from where he is heading that he is more than just a poor scholar. He has a dark secret hidden in a dark cave. A map is shown embedded on the cave wall with the name "Joseon." Wowzer, what the heck is he thinking? Crazy Brilliant Traitor!

I think the show did a good job in showing his years of wanderings among the peasants and finally meeting Lee Seong-gye.
He had a dream/plan but he was powerless to make it happen on his own. He had the brainpower but no military power to carry it out. Lee Seong-gye had the best army in the nation and that's why he seeked him out.

This Lee Seong-gye is a bit indecisive imo. I wonder if that is the reason why Sambong is feeding him the details of the plan one at a time. I also think that his plan was not set in stone from the beginning. He was also learning as he goes.

Lee had no interest in politics to begin with and doesn't seems to passionately want to be king. He just want to protect his people.
Maybe he is also the kind of partner/friend that Sambong would easily manipulate or take advantage of. Not because Lee Seong-gye is stupid but because his talent is on the battlefield and not with politics.

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And Jeon Do Jeong have NO QUALM ABOUT THE CASTE/SOCIAL CLASS SYSTEM. According to his confucianist viewpoint the top was the bureacrats(ie yangbang), second the scholars(of confucianism not science or math) and third artisans(craftmens not artists ie actors, singers, etc) /farmers. Everyone below that including the entertainers(actors), shamans, buddhists(JDJ PERSECUTED THEM), merchants(ie businesspeople) were considered "vicious". They were considered dregs on the society.

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Nice explanation guys.. Thanks for fast update.. I've been waiting for this and checking the recaps.. I like JDJ's idea but what I hate about him is not telling the others about what will happen next. he just plans it out secretly and chooses people who will tell about it. It's the same of using them to establish the country he wants. There's lacking rapport between them. He didn't tell them that the next royal family will be just a puppet of a prime minister. BW doesn't like that idea espcially being added that a royal family will not have the power to particpate in the politics.. He's obviously using lSG.. A man like him with no back up so he needs LSG to do what he wants..
AS i remember , it was Min clan is one of the noble clans in the goryeo dynasty. It was Min Je at 1382 that decided to make BW as his son in law.. then that must be why he approach LSG? LSG are in laws of the Min clan and lSG is known as a great general of goryeo.. so taht must be why.. I don't like the idea about why he didn't bring it up from the start.. he should have talk them about it and see if they are willing to help him..

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I just hate him for not involving everyone in this discussion....tssk.... so annoying that the LEE family and others have the greater contribution to this but didn't even included them to this discussion. He should have tell them from the start..I am seeing the future of Joseon with JDJ collapse..This is what during the late Joseon dynasty, the kings reduced to a figurehead while Andong Kim Clan control the politics for 60years..

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I'm trying to figure out what you are trying to say but I don't get where the drama ends where the history starts and your own thoughts. It's all mixed together and it's confusing.

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Confusing, and also the hard part is figuring out who is the fictional character and who is not. But I am not looking for historical accuracy in this drama, rather watching for fictional parts which are much more interesting: And I love
1. There is no weak female characters,
2. Actual torture scenes are skipped (mostly).

I can see JDJ's point of view and Bangwon's also. Just matter of who is the stronger/smarter one - Here you go -KillBangWon (his new nick by knetz)!

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This is not an authentic sageuk obviously so I'm following both the history and the fictional parts in connection to TWDR.

We all have our bias and preference :). For me, I'm watching for Kim Myung Min's Sambong for the history and Warrior Moo-hyul for the fantasy fictional part of it.

I think they made a smart move by skipping Choi Young's torture and execution. We see him in prison and that was it.

I also see both Bang-won and Sambong's point of view. Interesting stuff!

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I agree with you. He's only divulging information to certain people and it's not fair or good. It's not just Bang-won and probably his father, who didn't know about JDJ's idea of a puppet king. Bang Woo, didn't even know that they were thinking of making his father king.

Frankly, if JDJ simply wanted a puppet king, why choose LSG? He could simply choose a less powerful man who has no brilliant sons. LSG could still help him, but not as the intended king. Poor Bang-won.

Anyway, if JDJ had his way, Koreans would still be writing with Chinese characters. Now I know how brilliant King Sejong came about. With a genius father like BW and an intuitive and intelligent mother like Da-kyung, no wonder he was able to come up with the Korean alphabet.

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LSG doesnt particularly wants to become a king as much as the king now (forgot his name) that is why JDJ chose him
he didnt want some power tyrant
LSG can probably imagine JDJ since there is no specific "job" for the king in his scheme so it is most reasonable to assume LSG understand this is not an absolute ruling and doesnt mind it at all
the only power crazy here is LBW who now disclosed to us how power hungry he really is

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Precisely my point! LSG didn't want to be king, but JDJ persuaded him WITHOLDING the point that he would be a powerless one.

Even though the idea to have checks and balances made to the monarchy came later, JDJ should have discussed it with LSG. You don't ask someone to start a new kingdom with you as king, without discussing the kind of authority he would have. He should have even discussed it with ALL those helping him out, especially LSG's sons. He of all people should know, that you can't just put a man on the throne without his family being involved, especially when he has grown up sons who are actually helping you out with your big dream.

It simply shows that JDJ just wants control all this time. He doesn't want to be king, because the king has no power, but he wants to be the one controlling the king. He knows that the people will accept LSG better as king because of what he has accomplished in the military (and of course, because he has the people's interest at heart - at least I hope so). In essence, he wants to be the puppet master, rather than the puppet.

One can argue that perhaps he did not tell BW cos he knows that BW would not accept it. But I feel that he should try, in the same way that he tried to convince Poeun. If not, then he just comes across as someone who uses and manipulates people. This is not just his dream, but the dream of others too. And I think that was his biggest mistake.

I admired him for his vision and unwavering determination to make his nation into something better, but now, a lot of that admiration is waning. If he has a vision and dream, he should share it all, not get people to support you by deceiving them. It's like telling a group of children that you are going to bring them out to buy candy, and after they go with you to buy the candy - on the way, they protect you and stop others from deterring you - then, you tell them that the candy is actually not for them. So wrong, so wrong.

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+1000000000000000000

I love that JDJ isn't painted as the champion of justice and he's just a manipulator (possibly the biggest one) who uses unsavory tactics from time to time. Just like everyone else.

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a new king
LSG knows JDJ philosophy
you see a king in only one way for LSG a king is just a word
for LBW a king is status
ppl see words differently
you have to choose what definition applies to you

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@nara
"a new king
LSG knows JDJ philosophy
you see a king in only one way for LSG a king is just a word
for LBW a king is status
ppl see words differently
you have to choose what definition applies to you"

I have to disagree with you.
LSG was not privy to ALL of JDJ's ideas and philosophy. He is not a Confucian scholar, so he only knows what JDJ tells him. So far, JDJ has only told him that he wants him to be king in his new 'country' because he cares for the people. If JDJ has said otherwise, it was not shown in the drama. To LSG, a king is someone with authority and power, cos all the past Korean kings were like that, so he wouldn't be able to know any different unless JDJ tells him.

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i didnt mean that he knew everything but he knew who JDJ is and what he represent LSG doesnt give the feeling that he really wants to know
he doesnt want to bcome a king and the only reason he is will do it is because JDJ tells him there is no other way to change the present government\ruling
he is willing to leave everything in JDJ hands which is why JDJ chose him
as JDJ wants a king that is willing to share and even give up political life to the ministers
the one post affronted is LBW who has a different way of seeing things

i didnt get the LSG thinks kings has power the only ppl he seemed to confront or care was the others ministers - this is what i got from him i dont remember him describing how he thought a king should be - but maybe i ddint pay close attention but i dont remember that

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I'm with BangWon on this one. Why even have a king if he's just gonna be a vase? Even in modern politics, I don't ubderstsnd the need for a useless figurehead monarch/president except for tourism purposes... which I bet is almost zero in Goryeo/ Joseon.

I'm not surprised that Bang

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Bang Won is idealistic. Even if he screams justice or has gone through the trials in prison, he hasn't actually had anyone or experience anything big enough to shake his worldview and open his eys to the cruel world of politics. The biggest contributor to that is him being the son of Lee SeongGye who is still in power and actually gaining even more power. He does as Jung DoJeon says regarding Jung MongJoo just because he trusts Jung DoJeon for now which doesn't speak much in favour of him having multi-level perspective analyses and understanding just how cruel the world and people can be.

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I remember reading about what the most powerful and least powewrful kinds of government are. I forgot who said it.

If I recall, the order of preference was.
Absolute Rule by one good man
Absolute by a ruling class of good man
Absolute rule by the people.

A good honorable all-powerful king is the best. A vicious all-powerful king is the worst.

As for LSG, I find it wrong to risk the life of a great soldier to make him become a useless king. Would LSG want to be king, let alone a powerless king?

Bang Won has seen his dad go through hell and near-assassination; why go through all that just to become a sitting target with no real power? Confucianism has a mega-caste system and its ingrained in Korean society even now. There is no way the rich would allow equal property distribution.

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absolute in NEVER good since the person lose perspective and change
a person who was always considered good and constantly praised can become so sure of himself
that ant criticism would be ignored not bc of viciousness but vain he is too used to being right he can perceive the possibility of being worng

thats why democratic leaders have a limited times they can be elected - democratic governing learned from their mistakes and decided to limit any person leadership
even by the choice of the ppl

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That's why the first order of preference is 'absolute rule by one good man with the emphasis being on "good man". If the man changes to become worse then he is no longer a good man and the governance is no longer the best possible.

But that doesn't mean that absolute rule is never good, especially when it comes to making and implementing difficult and undesirable (to the incumbents) but needed (by the populace) choices in governance. Just look at the land reform in the drama and how 'democracy' is putting it off.

I don't really get your last paragraph but if you're implying that it is (automatically) good that democratic leaders can only serve for limited time (like 8 years for the US), then I will have to disagree with you. To me, if a leader is good, then he should stay in power for as long as he can and as long as the people he serves desires/ agrees. Because it is easier to implement and maintain long term plans with a stable government and a committed leader than to see or fear changing plans every time a leader's term comes to an end. Take for example education: that's not something you can plan and see the results come to fruition in just 8 years. Without such stability, there would only be chaos or plans will keep coming to end without showing their full potential.

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Thomas Hobbes?

I agree with your 'leadership preference'.

It's easier to move with power than to keep being stalled just because there are different ideas and approaches (Even if the end goal is the same).

To me, drama-Lee SeongGye doesn't even want to be king. He just wanted a better life for the people for whom he has always risked and served his whole life for. I guess you could say that he wanted greater purpose to what he was doing but he didn't want the responsibility and spotlight if possible.

Your whole last paragraph: Yup.

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not only him i think there are countless philosophers that think that and you can find also in modern writings
i just completely disagree

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i agree with your LSG analysis and maybe he was like that for real who knows

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@peeps what i meant that over time it was decided from experience that a leader would have a limited time because he can lose perspective
this limited time was added and not originally in democratic governments whas was the ppl choice is the only thing that matters
as much as limiting or removing extreme parties from elections so there wouldnt be a repetition of hitler that was chosen by the ppl
the process of voting developed over time

GOOD or BAD this is the question
who decides? are you confident that you good is an absolute goodness? is your good better than mine or someone else?
that is why absolute is never "good"
definition of good is relative thats exactly why there can never be an absolute good leader since there is NO absolute good or good person

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@Peeps

I'm with you on this.

Why have a monarchy if they are going to be nothing more than a figure head for decorative purposes? Why not do away with the monarchy entirely then? And form a system of government like the Americans where an elected official has the power that comes with his office to run the country with appropriate checks and balances such as the Senate and House of congress?

Don't misunderstand, I have full respect and regard for the monarchy, but my argument is that there should be some degree of power and independent action from those at the top. Not just a puppet or a figurehead king.

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Easy to say than done.. the question first is why don't they eliminate the caste system first ??? Monarchy is a traditional way to rule and it exist for a thousand years so it's really hard to eliminate..What I don't understand is when they create the new country, why don't they eliminate the caste system? but they don't...there still slaves.. and what most painful is it's heriditary.. It's really hard cause most the one who benefit this is the rich people/yangban.. they can study , and apply for the government posts but slaves and commoners can't cause no money and slaves were not allowed. and it is the same with the illegimate children. But during King Taejong and King Sejong's reign, there's exist a slave who became the greatest scientist under the support of King Taejong... and then there's King Sejong, son of King Taejong invented korean alphabet for the commoners who can't and wasn't allowed to read and write chinese characters..

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Because to JDJ a confucianist anyone below the three caste(burecrat ie yangbang), scholar, artisans(craftmen not artists/entertainers) are considered "VICIOUS". Including entertainers(ie actors ironcially), shamans, merchants(ie businesspeople), WOMEN(yangbang women were forced to stay at home during day time during joseon), etc. Yep JDJ would be considered a conservative today.

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I am sick and tired of people prasing confucianism depise it caste and anti woman system.

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Don't like the truth confucists ?! Too bad.

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he just told yeon hee and nam eun because they believe in him unconditionally. he plan to use lee seong gye and his family to establish a country and then get all the power by himself. He knows they wouldn't agree to it so he is waiting until the country is establish to take power from them

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LSG accepted him in the end.. and believe in his words.. his biggest rival is BW.. we can see how LSG was supposed as the successor cause he's the most capable.. but JDJ and his wife disapproved it.. they said that LSg should chose the son who he loves the most than the one who is capable.. So LSg choose the helpless Bang Seok.. so Bangseok will be more a puppet of JDJ while JDJ gains power in the court.. JDJ didn't tell Jo Joon about it. that must be why he will oppose JDJ later on.. I heard that Jo Joon wanted BW as the successor.. He said that for turbulent times, BW is a good candidate..
I am so excited for Jo Joon , Ha ryun siding with BW after the establishing of Joseon..My favorite prime minister are Ha Ryun, Hwang Hui( prime Minister of King sejong) and Han Myung Hoe (Prime minister of King SEjo.)

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*LSg was supposed to choose BW as a successor..

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why exactly LSG was supposed to choose LBW?
on what basis?

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king thought semselves as almost as gods - it is really difficult to fight a god
even in our "enlightened" time it is most difficult so much more then
kings did not prove themselves as good rulers anywhere
and you read more about war than peace during those times
and the citizens were the puppets of kings having no rights or say in anything
it is only luck and in my point of view LBW need to be remembered as a good king that made him not disregard his citizens

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According to Wikipedia, real-Lee SeongGye thought real-BangWon to be the best ruler during those chaotic times.

To me, a ruler is good or not depending how he rules according to the situation he is in. A chaotic environment needs someone who is able to pull everyone together and show them and implement direction in order to achieve survival. In times of peace, democracy may be the better answer for reaching greater heights.

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I am not sure what you're trying to say in your later post, but I think that war and peace come together hand-in-hand during those times. Like in an earlier episode, Jung DoJeon showed how the traditional chinese word for country actually had the symbol for sword as representation of using a sword to protect one's country. Peace does not always mean no war.

And real Lee BangWon/ King TaeJong being able to implement so many changes beneficial for the citizens in that new-found country is not luck at all (said a little cruder: Luck, my ass)

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i dont understand what you mean in war and peace come together they are the opposite
war have different reason or different method of achieving results
do you mean that we need war to create peace? if thats so there can never be peace

and what i mean is what is good NOW is also good THEN
humanity became this way out of learning and selective choices not by default
if its not by default it means now > then
so if we think today is good it was also good then

the LUCK was not reffered to LBW but the citizens that they were either lucky in their king or not

i said LBW wanted to be remembered as a GOOD king therefore implemented those changes and if the citizens showed any kind of revolt he would have killed them without a second thought

LSG wanted his 8th son to rule and was scared of LBW who exiled him therefore this statement only strengthens my view of LBW wanting to be remembered as a good king
forcing his own father to admit to that

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Wikipedia and Korean history is not always correct. I can go in there and say that Band-won was 6.7 tall with blond hair and people will probably believe it.

@peeps
Excluding wikipedia you might find out that Bang-won was not Lee Seong-gye's first choice as crown prince.
That was an assumption based on his contribution to the founding of Joseon.

And while we are at it, can we stop blaming Sambong alone for choosing Seong-gye's favorite son? He did not pick the boy himself, his father did and he supported his decision.
He was also asked to be his son's teacher together with Nam by his father.

This was the cause of the first strife of the princes. Who should be blame? The one who made the decision, the one who supported him or both? His queen also played a role in it, afterall he was her biological son.

Maybe Sambong should've advised the king that it's an unfair decision towards his older sons who were more capable of ruling the country. He might have been alive back then if he did that.

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@peeps from homura in soompi forum (http://bodashiri.tumblr.com/archive)

"in wikipedia LSG said LBW was the best choice for a king is it true? i thought he wanted his 8th son to become a king "

No, it is not true, according to the annals of Joseon dynasty.

In August 1392, one month after Joseon was founded, King Taejo (Yi Seong-Gye) discussed with his 3 core ministers (Jo Joon, Jung Do-Jeon, Bae Geuk-Ryeom) over who should be the Crown prince.

Yi Seong-Gye wanted to establish Yi Bang-Beon, the 7th son born from Queen Shindeok / Lady Gang (his second wife), as Crown prince because he loved and respected the queen so much.

King Taejo's first wife died one year before Joseon was founded. At that time, Lady Gang was the only queen of Joseon. She had made every efforts to support her husband with her powerful Gang clan. The king loved her so much. The actual power was in her hands. How could the ministers oppose to her?

One thing the ministers were afraid of was that Bang-Beon was too thoughtless and rash. They advised the king "If your majesty really want to choose one of the queen's 2 sons, the youngest one is better." Therefore, the king's 8th son Yi Bang-Seok was established as Crown prince at the age of 11.

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sorry @kiara saw your post after posting mine
thanx for the explanation

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No don't be. That's an impressive collection of historical text from relevant sources. Good for Homura for helping out with the history. That's 100 times better than my own memory.

Thanks for sharing:).

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You know, I'm really looking forward to Queen Sindeok (Seong-gye's queen) and Lady Min's battle for power. Queen Sindeok behind his son Bang-seok and Lady Min behind Bang-won. I hope they'll do it well.

This is the one time that I wish I didn't know the history ahead of time. The first queen of Joseon vs the political savvy Lady Min.
They should be given sufficient time for a political showdown. I'm tired of watching politics between men.

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I agree.. i hope there's no more concubine fights.. i am tired seeing them in Tears of the Dragon and King Sejong the Great.I just hope they would be more focus with Lady Min and Queen Sindeok's battle.. and BW's reforms for the country.. I want to watch it

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me too i was sure they would already started it since LK "forced" LM to go with her to that "ahdswan"? dont remeber how to writeit
you could see that LK is trying to make sure LM knows her place
cant wait to see her against LM

also i think LM also made LBW realize he wants to be king she is starting to turn himinto a political creature

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@nara.. why did you say it?? don't mention the hwasadan group women party.. you added the fuel to the fire.. i have been trouble just remembering it.. They talked about it in ep. 19.. and it's already ep. 30 still nothing happens.. i think if that will happen , LK will humiliate LM in front of her friends.....and then for LM will say to herself that will be the last time to be lost against her.. and then next is the battle of queens after the establishment of joseon dynasty..XD...i want that. not the concubine fights.. i want the battle between queens..

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he he he - witch laugh

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After all the lee family Went throught . After all they did in order to put sambong plan on....I think that sambong is not as white as we think... But I really love LBW ( his ideas , motivation, love for the people....) , he is still young so he will of course make mistakes .I think he likes power but his first motivatition is" people , justice ,no corruption ..." And I think that he Will keep his thought even with power.

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I always think that everything happens for a reason, so maybe without what LBW did back then Joseon wouldn't have a chance.
Because even though JDJ ideas are logical to us who live in the now, but in reality to jump from what Goryeo was "a big mess" to where JDJ wants, would either need a powerful man who has the ability to sacrifice everything to make it possible for the people to live JDJ dream, or a group of very loyal men share the same goal and work together like a one.
I wouldn't say the second was easier at that time.

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i have no idea why its logical now? i don't want to pay more tax just for paying an expensive live of a flower aka king/president! they must have contributed to the state. the election is not cheap at all if only to pick flowers

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I didn't mean "logical" as in to have a flower king. King is not the same as president, you can not elect kings! surely?
JDJ wanted a country where the power is not in one man hand, but he was living in a kingdom where it's expected to have a king to rule it. So he can't go from there and tell people we aren't going to have kings anymore! that's why he wanted to reduce the king's rule to little to nothing.
I'm with you that there is no need to have a king who do not contribute anything to his country.

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i dont know why ppl think that ppl then thought differently then they do now
ppl always wanted BY dream
which is live peacefully and respectfully
having more or less the same opportunities as others ppl psychology hasnt changed only their understanding of their rights
even then there were ppl entrepreneurs as vendors or other businesses even those pretend japanese are ppl trying to better their life albeit on the expense of others
ppl are the same and wee always the same
so what is better today would have been better then
if you dont want to go back or live in an absolute monarchy or tyranny why would they?

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Absolute Monarchy =/= Tyranny. It all depends on the person in charge.

And what is better today does not necessarily mean it would have been better back then. We now have UN and other international bodies to affirm and recognize national borders to that wars don't arbitrarily start due to greed (although how (not) effective that was with regards to the middle east is something I won't comment on). We have the internet - communication is now a lot faster. We can travel between distant places within minutes. Out situations now and then are different because what we could do now and then, the threats that are possible and the solutions that are possible now and then are different. Knowledge itself was different.

Yes, the end-goal may always have been the same but the process will change with changing environments.

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tyranny is the ordinary definition of a king
king is a tyrant covered in myth

again today governing is a learning experience it is NOT a default

it only means that today lessons would have come sooner
the UN is recognized by the countries and not the other way around
the countries made the UN and recognize it

the UN didnt force itself on the countries it is a learning experience

every lesson learned now could have been learned sooner given the opportunity JDJ is a person of this era

given the opportunity this era would have become then and we would have lived on 'mars" by now

the human mind would have been used for other things much sooner than it happened

when historians say its better now they mean it is better living in countries we have now then the monarchies we had then - learning experience we did at the suffering of those then

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This is so out of topic. Sorry, but, Nara-ssi, could you please put punctuation mark on your sentences please? I'd like to comprehend your interesting comments here more ;)

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LOL! True, but I suspect it bonds the people together. Symbols are powerful things. We don't have a king or a royal dynasty so we don't really feel it the way say...the Brits might feel about their royal family. But yeah..symbols..and symbols of the country can be very unifying when ministers, politicians, celebrities are always changing.

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I grew up in one and what you said is very true.

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The writing for SFD continues to astound. The scriptwriters are truly excellent. Didn’t even feel the 30 episodes go by, it literally flew by. Excited to keep watching YAI grow from idealistic young man to taking charge of his “imminent fate” and change it. If its not for LBW, there will never be a Jang Young Shil under JDJ’s system where only the academically gifted were utilized.

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"As for the how, Bang-won says it’ll be through helpful politics, which everyone knows is a surefire way to make people happy. Bang-ji thinks he’ll achieve his dream, and everyone smiles. These guys need to be together more."

Yes, they do need to be together more. Like I said once before, if I could turn back the clock or perhaps in an alternate universe, I would want Bang-won as King, Boon-yi as his queen - this way, she will 'kill the bug in him' by allaying his fears of being powerless, and with her ability of rallying the common folk, they'll make a great team. I also won't doubt that Sejong aka Lee Do would be brilliant enough to come out with the Korean alphabet, because, Boon-yi too, is very intelligent and astute. Then Bang-ji can be the commander of the army and Moo-hyul the commander of the royal guards.

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I'm late here because now I can only watch SFD on Sundays..T.T But I LOVE your comment, and I wanna see this on my screen!!

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I'm amazed that they still meet in the cave. I personally find it a very cool cave, but since Nameless already know where it is, why still meet there and plan covert activities? Especially when they know that people who enter can actually find dark corners to hide (as Bang-ji did much earlier) and eavesdrop.

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I was thinking the same thing! Why are they still meeting there and discussing important stuff?!

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Can't wait for manslaughter Bang-won!

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It is interesting to see that JDJ now seems to parallel Nameless more and more in the way he works, albeit working towards different goals/objectives.
How different is he from Nameless who only provides enough information to each person to use them? He is doing the same, telling his compatriots only on a need to know basis

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Good point.

I now understand why Nameless is trying so hard to make sure JDJ's reform fails and the current monarchy system continues. The tactics they use and JDJ uses are quite similar.

I often wondered in the past when watching dramas like 'Sungkyunkwan Scandal', 'The Fugitive of Joseon' and 'Moon Embracing the Sun' why the kings were so helpless. They were good kings who had great ideas and wished to implement them, but they were frustrated by an uncooperative cabinet and surrounded by a viperous royal family. I wish JDJ could have forseen the future, what would happen if the ministers themselves were corrupt and how hard it would be to check them. To be honest, it is easier to check an individual (say, a corrupt king) than a corrupt system (ministers).

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I'm rooting for Bang Won~
But I don't wanna see him joining The Moo Myung!

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Will he?

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in the preview, Cho young recommend BW as a sword..Moo myung hated JDJ and JMJ>>so thy will use BW to kill those two....since now BW hated JDJ ..and he even lied to BW that everything is good...tssk...that's too bad..when he said that JDJ is smiling..that's very insulting since he knows JDJ is just using them..

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Only as a sword, a weapon, meaning they would only use him, but i doubt it would be easy to control bangwon's actions

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hahaha.right..he'll pretend but will end killing them in the end...:) seriously, why do i remember han myung hoe in the TWDR... in the history, prime minister of King Munjong's reign,after the king died the prime minister KIm Jong SEo tried to control the court and extend his power against the royal family (so more like another JDJ version again) then there's political instability again since the crown prince Danjong is young,the power of royal family weakened, but han myung hoe told grand prince suyang to revolt and usurp the throne..grand prince suyang later known as King Sejo was similar to King Taejong..Han Myung Hoe became the prime minister of King Sejo...In the last ep of TWDR ,it said they will use Sejo..so it was like that...maybe king taejong's situation will be similar to King Sejo... Ha ryun ,the king maker advice BW to take the throne and Ha Ryun became the prime minister

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nameless purpose is confusing..i don't know what they want...

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@shirayukihime: Yeah. I don't know what Nameless' deal is. It's like their goal is just to oppose... everything.

The only thing I could think of is that Nameless is based in Yuan (the empire) and its goal is to keep Goryeo under Yuan rule/ continue to be a vassal state under Yuan. But then the old guy brings out a blood letter from Goryeo's TaeJo and I'm stumped because Yuan wasn't even formed until after Goryeo's TaeJo died.

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Nameless obviously have their own agenda and their own interest to protect. If they are indeed the Haedong Gapjok that we suspect them to be then they want to preserve Goryeo so they can keep their land and wealth.

They are not after the Moderate party (Poeun, Choi Young, Teacher Lee Saek, Lee In Gyeom etc) because they are loyal to Goryeo and they are not standing in their way.
Lee Seong-gye/Sambong, Woojae (Jo Joon) and their reforms are the real threat. The land reform that they are trying to pass will totally destroy their 700+ year legacy.

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@kiara @peeps thanks for the information.. Whenever I think of Nameless, I remember Lady Min's family.. I hope they are not involve here..that would be troublesome..

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@shirayukihime

The Min clan survived all the way to the end of Joseon. If Nameless is defeated here, they will rise again. I'm afraid the Min clan may continue that legacy through their queens.

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@kiara.i have read that min clan is one of the most powerful clan in goryeo-choson transition but they declined after the purging of the queen's brothers by king taejong...
so what do you mean if the min clan is involve here, what do you mean they will continue their legacy through their queens?

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Bang-won weakened them during his rule but they were not destroyed. Their power grew with every queen they provided all the way to the last queen of Joseon.

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My heart broke the moment Jung Do Jeon said that the king is only a flower. Damn. The Tree feels hit me so hard I needed time to get back up. The scene was well made with Yoo Ah In's acting and the other dragons' dreams resounding in the background.

I knew I would never be ready to see Po Eun die but I guess he needs to. I'm so ready for Bang Won to go berserk. Go, kill those who will block your way! Ugh. This drama making me go psycho mode. I need more!!

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Yes, so many good well-intentioned people are now gonna be removed. I like Po Eun. Heck, I even like General Choi Young. I really have to see Trees with Deep Roots. Yep I'm one of those who has not yet had the pleasure.

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I watched Tree because of this drama. It's good, but I love Six Dragons more, partly because it has better looking actors! Hee! (Soong Joong-ki only appeared for a few eps in Tree)

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It might be better to watch it after Dragons so that you won't lose the momentum. Although watching it now will give you a new perspective towards Dragons. I actually watched it again while waiting for Dragons episodes. Directing was good in Tree and Moo Hyul in Tree is just too adorable.

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Yes, that was a really cold way to say it. Especially after all the hell that LSG has had to go through along with his family.

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thought it was only me who go psyco mode! hahaha
Yeah ! let's order Moo Hyul and Yong Kyu kill everyone!
I want to see more blood.........

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Weirdly enough, I only want Bang Won to kill them. Baby Moo Hyul must not. ><

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Did you catch Yong Kyu dream? He wants to be remembered in history so I'm sure now that they will follow the history with him and Poeun.

His dream will come true, although he was a servant/bodyguard.

The dream scene was the saddest part of this drama so far for me. Their dreams was the foretelling of their individual future. Their happy time together will eventually come to an end.

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Yes! I realized it at that moment too. I can see netizens complaining if they don't go with history on that one anyway.

I knowwwwww. Bang Woo Hyung is not there too so we probably won't see him much from here on out since he's strongly against the whole Joseon idea.

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I always cry when Poeun is killed because he died in such a brutal way.Joseon wouldn't have been created with Poeun around. Sambong wouldn't have been able to convinced him even after spilling the whole plan about a government that is going to be run by talented scholars and ministers like himself. His loyalty was with his king and country.

If we look at it from Bang-won's point of view, Poeun was trying to kill his father in his attempt to save Goryeo. Poeun basically begged the king to get rid of Lee Seong-gye and his faction.

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Removing him saved his father's life and finally moved the revolution forward.

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Yeah. I'm finally okay with Po Eun dying. I'm ready.

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Well said!! At the minute our BW suspected him , I new it...

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It's still very sad because Poeun was trying to protect his country even if he had to turn in his friends (Lee Seong-gye, Sambong) to prevent the revolution.

From his point of view they were the traitors. He had to make a choice between loyalty to his friends or his country so he chose Goryeo.

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Finally another real great episode. Lee Bang Won's expressions that changed in split seconds on the last scene truly sent chills down my spine! Yoo Ah In is really good. Bring it on, Dark Side!

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Lol

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It's been so long since Bang-won has been motivated by a genuine ethical crisis that he doesn't actually seem to appreciate that the entire reason everyone has been working so hard to overthrow Goryeo is because of its inherently corrupt political system. For him, the only relevant question at stake is fairness. And after all the work Bang-won has gone through, he obviously thinks he has been treated unfairly. <----- sums up my feeling about him.

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so much yelling this episode. Include a therapist in the reform plans, please.

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I knew they were setting Bang-won up to be the clear hero but didn't expect it to be this early. I thought it would happen after Joseon's establishment. Everything that he is going to do from here on will be justified as expected. His claimed that Sambong did nothing and he was the one that built Joseon, his Joseon starts here.

Interesting to know how Milbon was formed. I didn't think Sambong was a part of it while he was alive. I always thought that it was his followers and supporters who created Milbon after he was killed.

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hero as in protagonist or hero as in saving the world?
i think i missed something or is it from your own knowledge of history?

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The drama's hero :).

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As good as the story is, is it bad to say that I'm not very interested in watching scenes of Bang-won?

Or maybe it's just me and my biased love towards Bang-ji and Moo-hyul. I just want these two to be on the screen all the time haha. But I guess we do need the story to proceed.

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I have a biased love for our two dragon bodyguards. Rinse and repeat eps 25 and I'll be fine with it lol.

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jdj's plan is simply stupid. why don't they just dissolve the monarchy and focus the power on dodang with the system of checks and balance he has designed?

they already know that their monarchy has a history of being abusive without ways of being checked.

he knows that the lee family has brilliant members so why does he want them weakened when they can be useful.

if the idea is to slowly transition into the eventual dissolution of the monarchy, he should have also thought of slow letting the lee family about his plans instead of plotting behind their backs.

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i agree ..that's why it would be better f he dissolve the monarchy..and also dissolve the caste system..but didn't..when he create Joseon, there's also a caste system... and also what's the point of creating another monarch if they will just only end up being a puppet... ? it would only repeat what happen during the puppet regime in goryeo dynasty... It started during the military regime of choe clan, they installed puppet kings, then replaced by a puppet regime of yuan dynasty and then replace by the puppet regime during the later years of goryeo dynasty after king gongmin died...JDJ is repeating the same thing again...Just admit that he wanted to rule but doesn't have the power to rule... i feel bad for BW for being used

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Problem is that JDJ knows that the monarchy is well rooted in the tradition, so he can't just remove it. He doesn't want one man having all the power, but he can't remove the king either, so he's weakening the king. I'm not agreeing with him, just sharing what I think of his POV, which seems quite astute.

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I'm probably being impatient but I really want to see more scenes between Bang Won and his wife. They introduced her as such an interesting character, being like minded as Bang Won, yet all we see of her is relaying small time information. I understand she isn't as big of a character, but with 20 episodes or so left I'd like to see that character they introduced a bit more than what we see of her now.

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for now, would it be better if she is hidden?? she will be the trump card of BW..I heard she is one of the most politically influential queens..she helped BW during the first strife and the second strife...and he respected her as his political partner...don't worry they will come to that..

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Her scenes might be small, be in the last few episode, she gave small but important advices to bangwon, in this episode, she told him "what if, your father and sambong is wrong.. if sometime they are wrong you should be ready yourself" or something along those lines.. in an earlier episode she told him that he should also have people under him or something like that.. i think boonyi character is holding down her scenes and interaction with bangwon.. she might have more scenes since the dragons are on verge of splitting.. she and haryun would most likely be his advisors.. moohyul would be his body guard, the sibling would follow jdj and so as yeonhee.. on history lsg is on jdj's side

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We've seen little glimpses of her cut-throatness. Her reaction to the coronation of Prince Gong Jang was pretty telling. She is as power-hungry as he is, but apparently without the idealistic dream of democracy and justice. So far we haven't heard her plead for the people.

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nope. actually, installing king gongyang is pretty dangerous for them,,..since now JMJ knows JDJ motives.. In the JDJ drama... someone provided a recap about the history , it said that after king gongyang became a king, JMJ started to plot with King Gongyang against LSG factions.. they exiled JDJ factions. and then LSG fell in the horse in 1392 ,so JMJ uses this chance to kill LSg but BW killed JMJ ..Then after that JDJ's factions came back to the government and control the politics..and they enthroned LSg and executed King Gongyang..
It's really dangerous, as someone as JMJ he can persuaded the king to kill the LSG factions..so Lady Min knows the politics inside in and out...she knows what will happen next... for example, dissolution of private armies and confiscate of weapons ordered by JDJ, Lady MIn already had he idea that JDJ use this chance to kill BW and his brothers

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When she was introduced, she is shown predicting what is going to happen in the government politics back then, these days(the last few episodes) she is with her father and haryun, they seem to be trying to guess what is happening or going to happen with the jdjvs jmj plus nameless issue. Her scenes are few but we can see her advices to bangwon are really relevant. She told bangwon he should have his own people under him, then he met haryun in his father in law's house, she also asked him "what if your father and sambong is wrong, what are you going to do?" "You have to be ready and do something if ever they are wrong" or something along those lines.. seems like her scenes in the drama is being held because of boonyi, but since the dragons are on the verge of being split seems like she would have more since and her and haryun will be bangwons advisors, because the siblings will most likely be on jdj's side

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Again, knowing the political world does not mean she is not willing to cut a few throats to be powerful. When she had LBW kill his brothers because he was not made the heir, those murders weren't personally necessary. The brothers could have been good kings as well. She just didn't want them to be kings. The woman felt she and her husband were entitled to the throne. Entitlement is not political expediency.

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@carolle. we really don't know if they become good kings. BW is a good choice to be a king.his brothers will just end up puppets of the prime ministers.seriously JDJ is crazy. he chooses the inexperience kid to run the country,it's obvious he will end up a puppet. look, what happen to the last three kings of goryeo, they were all puppets of the ministers...a king with no power is useless. I have watched lots of korean dramas,most of them sageuk,after that i search them up in the internet..i review the kings from goryeo, joseon and ming dynasty..I prefer a king like King Taejong rather than a puppet kings..Most of the kings like taejong make the country prospered and peaceful and were continued during his descendants' reign. I noticed that during the late years of goryeo and joseon, the kings are reduced into a figurehead. they were all puppets. and also the reason of the fall of silla kingdom was because of that..nobles gain control in the court while kings become a mere tool for them so this resulted to civil war and destruction.

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That's all well and good re: the future queen, but history also tells is the one who made LBW kill his brothers. So whether she is right or wrong re JDJ, she is power-hungry.

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I was talking about her in the drama and her relevance to the stuff that's happening.. anyways, she was introduce before the drama started as bangwon's woman who he doesnt love, but she is smart and very ambitious, her first scenes in the drama kinda gave the viewers that kind of mpression.. her words seem to have a great effect on bangwon. She is a woman who knows politics, and participates in it. From what i heard, jdj and lsg's wife were the first ones who tried to kill bangwon, whether this is true or not, during those decades whether in korea or any other countries, killing a rival on the position is kinda a norm and not seem as just pure evil, because its "a kill them first before they kill you" logic.. it still happens up to this day, whether it is to literally kill your enemy or digging every dirt you find to kill their reputation.. most people admire her as a smart queen.

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I hear what you're saying. But the norm --of murdering family members-- was never really "accepted." And later, LBW's kids strongly disapproved of his actions of murdering their uncles.

LSG's wife made LSG choose LBW's brothers as king. We don't know if the brothers would have been good or bad. But LBW's wife thought it was best to kill the brothers. True, maybe she knew the brothers might do a preemptive strike against LBW. But, as you say, she was ambitious and so far she shows no love for the common people or the ideals of the revolution. She is entitled. She likes power and status.

But if we are in dramaland, we are shown from the beginning that this future queen's major skills are politics and ambition. One can be politically-savvy or politically-active and yet not be overly-ambitious for one's own glory. Choi Young and Po Eun seem to be like that. Maybe JDJ was like that, but I'm not sure.

I think right now in the drama is where the extremely personal becomes the political; this is where LBW says "Power must be in my hand at all cost because I want to save the people...and if there is a royal family, that family must be our family."

There could be one of two things that're freaking him out:
Not usurping the throne, and not having power.

The choices are:
LSW becomes king and has no power.

LSW does not become king but his noble band of revolutionaries change laws, and the way the ministers rule for the better, regardless of who is in power.

Yong Jang becomes king and the country's laws etc are changed for the better (whereby LSG gets no glory and LBW gets no glory or power.)

LSW becomes king and has all power (whereby everyone in LSW's family has supreme power.)

LBW's brothers want Yong Jang to be king but so far they do not want to have anything to do with becoming a dynasty. But LBW's wife wants it and will support him. And so far, we don't see if she has any love for the revolutionary ideas.

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who's jmj?

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Jung Mong-ju.

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Lady Min is usually my favorite character when it comes to this era.

I cheered for her when she was fighting to support Bang-won.
Annoyed with her for being overly ambitious.
I felt bad for her when he didn't acknowledge her contribution.
I sympathized with her when she became jealous of her husband's many women.
I cried with her when he killed her 4 brothers who also helped him sit on the throne.
Cried with her when her father died upon hearing of his sons' exile.
ETc etc etc.

She went through a lot of heart ache but she managed to raised Sejong to become the best king Joseon has ever had.
Rock on Lady Min!

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I love how complicated Bang Won and Lady Min relationship was. They're both ambitious and intelligent and seem to work together to aim the same goal. Sounds like a perfect couple to begin with but the marriage itself is a trouble because BW noticed her ambition later, he killed her brothers and took many concubines that made his wife jealous. But before that, they made 11 children together lol...from team work to enemy...I just wish there will be a film or drama focus on their dynamic relationship only.

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Right, they were so much alike so I'm not surprise that they weren't getting along at some point. King Sejong the Great was the product of two intelligent and ambitious parents.

I do sympathize with her because she is a woman and I would feel the same way if I was in her shoes but when I see things from Bang-won's point of view I kind of understand why he did what he did to a point.

He killed many people to get to the throne so he had to sleep with his eyes open. Always anxious and trusting no one. Vulnerable to counter attack, revenge etc.

I'd watch the heck out of it if they make a drama based on their relationship.

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he was lucky cause he was not poison by his wife despite of killing her brothers.. wonder what's behind of having 11 children,that's a lot,.... i feel bad for cause she married bw for the prosperity of her clan but it was a loss after killing her brothers. well, sedo politics is really dangerous, that's the another reason of the decline of goryeo and later joseon dynasty.. and in the end,king taejong asked to be buried together with his wife.. she's his only queen...

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After all Bang Won has seen, can he really trust Joseon ministers? It seems to me, life in Goryeo is a mess because the king's power is too much in check by the powerful ministers. No matter how many checks and balances exist, the rich would always have power. Nowadays we in the USA have a congress, an executive branch, and a judicial branch. The typical citizen has much monetary freedom and political power. But still the rich and the powerful own our government and the 1% still exists. Not sure if there was any Asian society at the time that was like Jeong De Jeon's dreams so am not sure it would've worked, but it seems as if a strong absolute monarch and honorable king would be needed to make the dream work.

Thanks for the recap.

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Goryeo's corrupted ministers were mostly rich noble landowners and retired military heroes like Lee In Gyeom.

The era of the Sadaebu scholars started with Mogeun (Lee Saek), Poeun (Jung Mong-ju), Sambong (Jung Do-jeon), Yang Chon (Gwon Geun), Wujae (Jo Joon) etc. They are part of Dodang but they are usually the ones trying to reform this rotten government.

Bang-won was a Confucian scholar himself who studied under Poeun, Mogeun etc. He has got to know the difference.

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Stand aplous for the show! Its deliver so smooth that nobody can against, and make us understand deeply about sambong and bang won idealism. they both had bad and good side just like everyone. no one can blame one or them both to geting craked. its fictional, but fit in history!

The preview of next episode make me wait in impatience. Is bang won will be nameless new sword? i mean, really? sooo curious about how this "sword" will work. Is next week always that long? lol

in drama land we told someone is better warrior than other in verbal. but not in this show. no word need to explain that Cheok Sa-kwang is better than bang ji. i'm not even mention about the "catching cup move" She is so fast, effective, and deadly.

well directing and choreographing. the production team is all daebak!

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Cheok sagwang is awesome, her scenes left my stunned.. she seriously fast., he killed baek geunsoo before he could even pull his sword, and killed bangji's master's student in the blink of an eye.. she damningly fast.. i want to see how they would use her in the drama, even though we know how things would work for the side shes on based on history

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"Is bang won will be nameless new sword?"

I'm still trying to figure out what it means but it sounds exciting.

Will they use him or he will use them? I think he will be the one to expose them and what they are after.

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That's the point Kiara! is the sword will stab their enemy, or they own back right after they helped him kill all his enemy? Ha!

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Double edge, I can see that :).

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