Even the Koreans we meet here in the States ask for our age (my boyfriend and I); we never get offended. They apply this jondaemal and banmal in english by either saying "dude" or call us by our name... I'm just guessing.

I'm still confused on one thing... What is Jondaemal and banmal? I do understand that one is formal and the other informal, but what IS it - I mean, is it verb forms? Is it using a different "you" when speaking to them? Is there any way a non-Korean kdrama watcher can make that distinction herself?

The problem with reading subs is of course not being able to pick up on the language they're using... So all that added depth is lost... It's rather frustrating. xD (which is probably why I love your recaps so much, since you tend to pick up on the nuances I can't).

"So, essentially it all boils down to this: Jondaemal indicates respect, but also distance. "

. . .except within families, especially married peoples. More often, the woman is the sole user of jondaemal, while the husband uses banmal, but there is also a fair amount of married couples in which both husband and wife use jondaemal as a matter of respect.

I also know some married couples who only argue and fight using jondaemal. This keeps fights from disintegrating into all-out, no holds barred, knock-down drag out bouts of incredible ugliness. It keeps you from crossing that line that shouldn't be crossed and helps you not say something that you'll really really really really really really really really really really regret later.

Disclaimer - My husband and I use jondaemal to each other. We're very loose with other boundaries, but feel it's important to maintain a certain level of respect for one another. It also sets a good example for the little ones.

there is one thing that always drives me crazy about k-dramas. i totally get the whole thing about jondaemal creating distance, being an indicator of respect, etc. but what makes me really mad is that when two people are romantically involved, the man speaks to the woman in banmal and the woman always speaks to the man in chondaemal. to me, that just shows how deeply rooted gender bias is in Korea. subjugation of women in Korean culture is even embedded in language and rears its ugly head in popular culture representations. when i asked my dad why that was, he said there is a korean saying that the man is as high as the heavens and that a woman is as low as the ground.

This is similar to Indian culture, this rules applies exactly in our language too. By language the character speaks, you can guess the kind of relationship, social stature, closeness and what not!!!!!!.... Very interesting....Thanks

wow, i've been waiting for this... thanks so much!

for jondae, actual name + shi.. and for banmal, actual name only right? can you also use pronouns in place of actual names? and in sentences where you don't use the names, there must be a lot of this i think, how can you speak formal or informal?

does jondae necessarily signifies distance? are instances where it indicates closeness possible also? though it is usual that you drop formality with someone you become close with, formality and closeness are not mutually exclusive. like for persons one respects and is very close with, i'd think that person will prefer to use the polite speech. uhm.. will it even be a little disrespectful if one has become very close to a person and still continues to use jondae with him/her?

oh, i got a lot of questions.. i feel like i'm realizing a lot with my own language while learning a little bit of korean.

@ 3 nhu: they're types of speech, manifesting themselves in the "yo"s added onto the ends of sentences, which is like casual/easy formal (as opposed to "... ibnida" which is more formal, like newsreaders, businesspeople). if you're using banmal you use the base form of the word. it's all about the endings. so.. watch out for the "yo's"

@ 4 kimko: i hate that, too. ><"

@ 6: capitalscandalrocks: in indian/pakistani culture, in those language(s), it's not as strong or inherent as korean though, right? there aren't as many levels of formality, it's not thought about as much. i mean, koreans particularly ask ages, explicitly suggest dropping to casual; that's not done in south-west asia.

At least you don't have to conjugate Korean verbs according to formal and informal types of speech like Spanish, yeah?

my parents speak banmal with each other because they met in fifth grade. but my dads parents dont like it when my mom uses it to my dad, and she has to be more formal in front of them. annoying.

@ xiahkixiri

well it depends.....though language has become casual now days but that's how it was say 40 yrs ago and is still prevalent in some pockets of India.

In Indian culture its the relationship that matters not the age.... ..... The region from where I am , if your dad/mom's bro/sis/cousin is younger than you, you cannot call them by name ; instead you have to call them uncle/aunt and so on. Believe me I have grandpa of 20 yrs age .....LOL....because he is grandson of my grandad's cousin.

But many of my husband's younger brotther/cousins are older than me, but I still call them by name.....this whole thing is slowly vanishing.......but I like those old traditions so still follow them

hehe i was very happy when my crush suddenly started using banmal with me~~

Another interesting post. I'm kind of glad I don't speak korean though, when I see things like this. I mean, we have the singular/intimate and plural/polite speech in Greece as well, but it's not so advanced as in Korea.

I guess if I ever go there as a tourist, english is quite good in that sense. You just have "you" and it can be both plural and singular form. :P And you can still use "miss" and "sir" and all these for strangers.

I would love to learn korean someday though, even if some things will take getting used to. Hee hee.

Thank u guys!!!!!!!!....in my culture we don't have dis formalities with each other! sometimes its sad cause i feel no respect for the elders....we just call everyone by their names!

So is there any 'middle' way? No too respectful but not rude either. It is confusing.

Yeah, I don't use jondaemal with my parents either although some of my friends do with their parents and it sounds so weird. O_o

I actually find it weird and awkward using banmal to people around my own age. But I also find speaking in Korean to my friends when I can speak English odd too. LOL.

I love these posts, jb and gf! I'm Korean American and everything you guys are writing aren't new to me. But it's like I'm looking at the topic with new eyes and can appreciate it as someone who has never learned about Korean culture.

@kimko, for a couple, when a man speaks in banmal (informal) and the woman speaks in jondaemal (formal), it's not necessarily because of some sexist attitude. In such circumstances, it's 100% certain that the male is also older.

You know the saying "old habits die hard?" Most likely, even before the couple entered into a relationship, because the male was older, the woman addressed him using jondaemal. Many times, people continue to use the speech they started with even after they start dating, and thus, the discrepancy even after they become a couple.

So interesting! Though I don't speak Korean, I'm slowly able to grasp the squeeeal factor you talk about when the language changes. I'm thinking that's from the hundreds upon hundreds of hours that I've watched Korean dramas. It definitely adds more depth and meaning to the drama if you're more aware of their language and how it relates to the culture.

I'm so glad you two are doing these glossaries, Javabeans and girlfriday! You have no idea how much I look forward to your posts everyday :D

OMG could you please not post screenshots from episodes of dramas that haven't had subs posted yet? I totally haven't seen that scene with Gun-wook and Tae-ra yet...

I found this interesting and worthy, we as k-drama addicts need to learn the culture as well. And....I can show off bits to my family who also k-drama lovers...but will admit the source is coming from ...dramabeans !!!! (bravo...bravo)

I am not a Korean so I am a bit confuse as well with this, how do we know they use jondae, banmal or combine it in the dialogue. Would that be possible they use jondae/banmal on and off depending on the mood? oooooch confuse.

If banmal is to reflect 'closeness', I notice that the couples that romantically involved still use name+shi....??.

Also, I notice in K-drama there are lot of different way to say sorry (piyane, piyanata, etc), love you (sarange, sarangeyo, sarangmida???), sorry for the misspelling and there are lots words...+mita?.

JB/GF could you help to exlpain more?.

I actually kinda want to hear you ramble on about grammar and grammatical "nitpickery" LOL

Such a closet grammar nerd... :P

Wow, I find this so fascinating and awesome. On a more humorous note all I can think of is someone asking my southern belle mother how old she is, expecting a truthful answer...lol trying to explain its all in the name of respect. :) what a cultural collision that would be.lol Thanks for the post:)

I've been learning Korean for a while, and it is still confusing and only gets more. All the honorfic speeach, and remembering to use it when speaking to someone is hard. Because I wasn't raised speaking Korean I have to remind myself to not forget that "yo" or "imnida" or so on. As a teacher, I still have to use "yo" with my students for the most part, I drop to banmal when I discipline them and tell them to stop whatever nonsense they are doing. I will use formal though when their parents are around no matter what.

I love the Korean langaunge, and the more I learn about it the mosre fascinating and beautiful it is to me. My Korean co-teacher is surprised when I say Korean is a beautiful langauge to me. It can be cold as ice one minute and then passionate the next. Haha...I love it. At my school though everyone uses formal but the principal always uses banmal even with other collegues and that kind of makes me annoyed because I find it disrespectul even if he is older and the principal. We all work together.

I don't like though when I see wives using formal and the husband speaks in banmal. It irritates the crap out of me, and I asked my co-teacher about it and she says that it just depends on the couple, and since the husband is usually older it's more respectful. I get that, but seriously you are husband and wife, in my head equals but when one speaks formal and the other banmal it makes it seem distant to me.

My students try to wiggle out of formal with me, we speak English together ,but sometimes I need to use Korean and they try to wait a heartbeat before adding that "yo" or they try to call me by my 1st name without adding teacher, and I make it crystal clear to them that if they try it again they'll feel my wrath:).

Can't wait for banmal:)

Disclamier - I am not Korean; just have watched a bit of K-dramas so...

@2, the formal speech is longer (it takes more words to speak jondae); banmal is shorter.

e.g. in english you ask: What?
The banmal version sounds like: Mwo?
The jondae version sounds like: Mwo migayo?

e.g.2 in english you say: Don't worry
The banmal version sounds like: kukjung ma
The jondae version sounds like: kukjung haji maseyo

The presense of the "yo" word at the end of the sentense is usually a good indicator that the speech is jondae... my observation...

Since I've just started trying to learn Korean it's apparent to me between formal and informal speech. But one thing that grates me is the whole female formal male informal thing, if I had a boyfriend who spoke Korean I'd want to speak equally be it we both speak formally or informally to each other. But that's just my western upbringing speaking. Maybe it's just me but in English I try not to use the word You with people I'm not familiar with like lecturers or acquaintances usually try to say their Mr/ Miss/ Mrs surname or if I don't know that I use their first name (but feel rather squeamish using it). I call my parents mum or dad as everyone else but I tend to call my mum 엄마 as she tends to respond to it rather than mum and it distinguishes who is calling her as my sister and I have similar voices.
FYI I'm am not Korean I'm just odd.

so many nuances in the korean language! i remember one time i asked my korean friend why she never speaks korean with my other friend who is also korean and she said "it's such a hassel. since katy is older than me i have to speak formally to her, so i just stick to english."

also i remember my english teacher telling us that the older the language is the less grammar there will be. which i guess is true because chinese doesn't have that many formalities. at least not as much as korean and japanese.

: ) love reading about different aspects of korean culture. you guys are doing a great job!

thanks for pointing this one out, the jondaemal and banmal...I get confused on it sometimes when I watch K-dramas, especially on how the characters address each other but I got the idea that you have to speak formally to ones older than you due to its also applicable in English or other languages, it was interesting for me to realize that there are different ways to address someone in Korean, whether its a new acquaintance or someone you are close to. I like also the choice of dramas for this topic as well, very poignant to the topic..

I live in Australia and my korean is decent but I still have trouble with my jondaenmal. I speak more banmal to my parents but I mix it around a bit, and they've taken it into stride when I say 'wassup' to them or 'dude' haha.

Other adults I know well don't get offended when I say things wrong because it's the whole 'oh well she grew up here' but other people kind of look back at me with a raised eyebrow sometimes. And I don't think I will ever master talking to my grandparents gah.

But yeah, I was on exchange to Japan for two weeks and there were quite a few koreans at the school. Because I'm also korean, they expected me to bow every time they came closer and they'd always talk to me asking how my day was, and trying to be extra polite. But this other korean girl I went with ignored them and they basically made her life hell through you know, the small comments and scathing looks. And when an Aussie girl I went with brightly said 'Ahnyeong!' to the sunbaeduel, they were all like '... WTF' for a moment until they calmed down. *shakes head* That's the closest I've gotten from a high school hierarchical system in Korea, and it's the furthest I want to go.

@ 22 Opal

Heya~

Jondaemal tends to be longer while banmal is short and to the point. For example, let's say you want something. So you would say, "Give me."

Jondaemal = "Ju sae yo."

Banmal = "Jo."

**The yo is critical. Sometimes you'll see in dramas when a character is acting up and is using banmal and--only when they're on the receiving end of a glare--they'll end "yo" to switch the sentence back to jondaemal. There are some scenes in Lovers in Paris that does that in the beginning episodes. It's actually pretty hilarious but JB posted, subtle things like that get lost in translation. =(

As for your second question, it's possible for people to switch using jondae/ban mal. But I don't think people would use both jondae and ban mal in the same conversation.

Sometimes I jokingly use jondaemal with my parents (or if I'm in trouble ^^;;) other times I'll use banmal with them. It really depends on the situation and the people speaking.

I think the whole name+shi is also a matter of preference. It depends on the couple. My parents don't call each other by name. Usually my mom will address my dad as "Eunha Appa" with "Eunha" being my Korean name--basically saying "Eunha's Dad." It's just up to the couple. Sometimes it matters more to use each other's names while to others it doesn't matter as much.

Finally.

Miyan. Miyanhada. Miyanhae. = Sorry

Jo-ah (banmal for "like"). Saranghae. Saranghaeyo. Saranhanmida = Love

I covered this earlier. The short versions are banmal whereas the longer ones are jondaemal. Actually, I think all the forms of sorry listed are banmal. The last two Korean words for love can be seen as jondaemal. You see the yo and the da. Da is also another indicator for jondaemal.

The word for "thank you" demonstrates this.

Jondae = Go ma wuh yo. Go map seum ni da.

Ban = Go ma wuh. Go map da. (This is also kind of confusing because I see both of these terms as ban even though the last one has "da" in it.)

Another example, if I accidentally knocked over a stack of papers belonging to someone my age I would use the word "Miyan" which is banmal for sorry with a cute smile. If I knocked over papers that were on my boss' desk I would use "Miyanhamnida" which is jondaemal and rush to pick them up. LOL.

Hope that helped!

Just remember the rule of thumb is usually if it's short = banmal and for longer = jondaemal.

You can also tell if they're using jondae/ban by who the people are with, situation, and tone of their voice. But I suppose those are pretty subtle and not as obvious.

Gosh, I never realized how complicated Korean was until I had to explain. O_o

@22, the whole difference in saranghe, sarangheyo and saranghamnida are the different ranks in politeness. so the first would be considered banmal, said to a friend. the second is polite but not overly so, so maybe said to a guy older than you when you're not in a relationship? and the third is the most polite, so when his parents ask you do you love him, you'd answer in that way.

hope that helped (:

there are also differences aside from the "yo" between jondaemal and banmal. sometimes the word you use is also different. for instance for eating, depending on who you are directing your speech to the words are different.

banmal: juh-nyuk mukuh
jondaemal: juh-nyuk deusaeyo

ahh, korean. oh, and for those who didnt know, we dont really ask for the exact age. more like we ask what year the person was born in. so instead of "how old are you?" its more like "when is your birth year?" just for those that didnt know =]

Omg I love this.... which reminded me of an interview with Kim Sun Ah... so she was saying that she still hangs around with MNIKSS cast and they call each other and stuff...

She said there was once Daniel Henney called her and I think he was still learning/adjusting his Korean so I think he uses a certain banmal word with her and she kinda freak out... not that she finds it rude or angry but she was going like "eh?" and wondering if she should like correct him... That was such a cute interview just to see KSA's expression...

Language is such a beautiful thing... I am gonna add some of them in my bucket list... :D

I'm loving these little topics you have about the nuances of Kdrama!

I never really thought much about the whole banmal/joendemal because I grew up speaking Korean, but for the non-native speakers here I guess it adds *another* dimension to these complex relationships.

@ 9: As many people mentioned, the "-yo" usually indicates that they are speaking in jondaemal. What's really gets confusing is often the entire verb will change when you are speaking in jondae (not just the verb tense, but the actual verb).

For example, the word phrase "Have you eaten?" can be:

-chu muk uh suh? (rude, almost like swearing)
-muk-uh-suh? (to close friends, those younger than you)
-de shush uh yo? (to parents, older, more respectful)
-shik sa ha shush soom ni gah? (also respectful)

On a side note, these lines blur a little when alcohol gets into the picture.. which is why I think we Koreans drink so much! Hahah :)

@ 34 peanut butter

OMG. That is kind of annoying for me when they ask your birth year because sometimes I'll get someone born in some random year and I have to do the math and then I look like an idiot figuring it out. LOL.

@ 37 kiara

To add on to your list, whenever I tell my grandfather it's time to eat I say: "Jinji de she sae yo."

**Jinji being a more formal word for meal.

It's the same thing with Jap - "the longer the sentence, the more formal it is" is the general rule of thumb. But I'm actually Chinese and it's interesting how we don't have such a big difference between formal and informal speech. The only case I can think of is the difference in address (like French, tu vs vous) but the sentence length definitely remains the same and nothing is added onto the end. :/ I guess this makes Chinese easier to learn ;D.

To add to @37's explanation of honorifics in Korean for @9's sake,

There are both:

1. use of different sets of vocabulary
2. verb conjugations.

Folks have already touched on the casual formal conjugation "-yo," but there are many others of greater formality, some of which are out of place for everyday usage.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_honorifics

Skip down to "Speech Levels" which suggests at least 14 levels of formality, although I think it still leaves out some.

thanks for the enlightenment!
now i understand why my korean friend was so miffed about another guy korean classmate using "formal language" with her.
was she offended cos the guy thought she looked older and had to be respectful towards her?

You know this is what I appreciate about dramabeans. Instead of "gossip"y blog posts, there are actual, intellectual, and thought-provoking posts that are entertaining to read. For this I thank you. It's the only website that I've found that informs me of important drama news, and now has good articles on Korean culture in general.

Anyways, like some other people mentioned, I'm getting into the "squeal" as well. My most recent: when Jeon JIn Ho yelled "Kae In-ah" instead of saying "Kae-In-sshi" as he usually does. I was like GASP!! I think watching so many dramas I am inherently understanding such language rules. And being Indian and speaking Telugu which also does have honorific speech and informal speech helps too.

@41 Pasta

It could be that she wants to be closer to him, and he's keeping her at a distance as if they're not familiar enough to use informal speech yet. Maybe she wants to date him or something :P

Wow. I had to read this article twice to fully understand this. So many layers in Korean society! In Filipino society, there is one way to do it -- and that is to use "po" and "opo" when trying to be submissive to anyone older. Mr. or Ms. if you are addressing someone formally as well :-)

Thank you so much for this JB & Girlfriday, even if I don't understand the Korean language I see the difference in the conversations when I'm watching Kdramas. I finished watching Loving you a Thousand Times and I saw this difference in their conversations and I didn't understand why it was that way, now I know :) Thank you, this is very, interesting.

Just like what Your sassy friend explained about her mom calling her dad "Eunha Appa" I heard that in the Thousand times drama and didn't understand why they have to use the child's name followed by "appa" or "omma"

MORE PLEASE :D I'm learning a lot. I hope someday I learn to speak and understand the Korean language.

I love this!! I can only pick out a few words in Korean. I've been watching kdramas for less than a year. But I can make out some differences in the way characters reference each other. The quality of the subbing makes a huge difference. Some I've seen drop the honorific and some use first names in place of. I definitely prefer the subs that include those terms that are not literally translatable. It really does nuance the action on the screen. I think the first time I really noticed it was in BoF when Jan Di calls Jun Pyo by his name throughout and, unlike the others, doesn't call him sunbae or (later) refuses to call him oppa. It really highlights a lot about the nature of their relationship.

Anyway, thanks so much for these posts. I'm excited to read more. There are so many great questions in the comments, too. I hope that you get to answer them.

Thanks JB & GF! This article was really enlightening! Though I've watched more than a few dramas and have been a lurker here since like forever, there are always little nuances that I don't get because I'm not Korean!

Oh and I totally dig the popculture series of articles too!

Thanks so much for this post!

When i went to korea for an exchange trip, my host was quite shock that i was one year older than her. I guess she probably thot she got to be more polite.

this explains a lot about the korean language. a friend of mine was studying korean and i was doing the homework of reading and researching about the language, but this post answers most of the questions i am difficulty finding myself. i keep on telling my kdrama friends (they're both guys, btw) that there is an informal and formal language. i guess, they are not really sure if i'm that reliable knowing i am not korean at all...

how about saying hello. "anyong" is considered banmal right? i just watched an interview of kim bum in the philippines, and the interviewer greeted him with "anyong". i was sure there were uncertainties because it took him awhile to answer and there was a different expression on his face (maybe confused on how he will react). nevertheless, the expression quickly dissolved as he flashed a smile and greeted her, ignoring the informality.