Six Flying Dragons: Episode 30

261 January 13, 2016January 23, 2016

by HeadsNo2

Our most cunning young dragon devises an ingenious plan to lure the most secret of secret organizations out of hiding this episode, and by using their own vanity as a weapon, he’s able to poke a few good-sized holes through Nameless’ impenetrable facade. It’s an hour about looking to the future, of realizing one’s dreams and how to make them happen, even though we know in drama speak that when you plan for the future, you may as well be signing your own death warrant. Fate is a cruel mistress that way.

SONG OF THE DAY

Gain – “열두 시가 되면 (Let’s Meet When It Turns Twelve)” [ Download ]

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EPISODE 30 RECAP

After revealing herself to be Cheok Sa-kwang, the girl formerly known as Yoon-rang begs the prince to drink the antidote, swearing that she’ll protect him with her life. He believes her, and takes the proffered cup.

Neither of them know Traitor Baek is, well, a traitor, so they have no idea that he’s going to take the information on Sa-kwang’s identity back to Nameless… until Sa-kwang points out that he wasn’t perturbed when Nameless showed up.

Thinking back, she realizes that Traitor Baek was the one who led them to the spot where they were ambushed, and reacted to the poisoned needle before he saw it. He knew it was coming, she reasons, and Baek realizes there’s no way out but to reach for his sword.

Sa-kwang is much too fast for that though, and in a few swift seconds she’s broken his arm, taken his sword, and cut his throat with it. Just like that, Traitor Baek is no more.

Master Hong fills everyone in on the Cheok family story, explaining how Cheok Jun-gyeong, the original legendary swordsman, passed down his skills to one surviving son. That son became the grandfather of both Cheok Sa-kwang and her now deceased brother, and poured his training into Sa-kwang when said brother went off into the world seeking fame and fortune.

At the same time, Sa-kwang tells her story to Prince Jungchang, explaining how she never liked the training even though she’d submit to it. That all changed the day Jang Sam-bong’s disciple came looking for a match against her grandfather.

He won the match fairly and her grandfather died, but a young Sa-kwang couldn’t control her emotions and killed the disciple in return. She tells the prince that she struggled more with having killed him than her grandfather dying, and that it’s haunted her until this day.

She had planned to leave the sword forever that day, but out of her love for Prince Jungchang, she killed three men to protect him. And she’d do it again, so she urges the prince to be strong. In return, she’ll be his sword and shield.

Yooksan returns to where he last met Prince Jungchang to find Traitor Baek and two other unknown men dead. He has Jukryong with him, who identifies the fatal wound on Traitor Baek’s throat as a signature of Goksan Swordsmanship. But he doubts their man Cheok In-kwang could’ve killed them when he was already dying himself.

Bang-won finds Boon-yi after investigating the loss of the men he sent to capture Traitor Baek, and it turns out she didn’t tell the boys how she got the information she did from Cheok In-kwang.

She tells Bang-won how the code her mother used way back when still worked in the present, which only convinced her further that her mother wasn’t kidnapped by Nameless. In fact, Boon-yi is now certain that her mother is an active member of Nameless.

“Why are you just saying this now?” Bang-won asks. With a deep breath, she tells him it’s because she knows her mother is now their enemy, and it frightens her. Much like Moo-hyul, Bang-won tsks at Boon-yi for her crestfallen spirit, wanting ol’ General Boon-yi back.

In turn, she asks him about his sudden interest in Nameless, since he’d been preoccupied with following Jung Mong-joo around before. He explains that he’s having to trust Poeun because Jung Do-jeon does, and is now determined to root out Nameless. It all starts with finding out who Ji Cheon-tae is. (I’d mistakenly thought it was a place and not a person last episode, my bad!)

Bang-won finds a self-satisfied Ha Ryun and offers to share what he knows about Nameless in return for him doing the same. He knows Ha Ryun didn’t follow Nameless all these years out of loyalty to Lee In-gyeom, which Ha Ryun admits is true.

Then, chuckling, he agrees with Bang-won’s assessment that he can’t stand his own curiosity. “What is it that you cannot stand?” he returns in kind, only for Bang-won to give a patented answer: “Injustice. I cannot stand injustice.”

But Ha Ryun knows that can’t be it, and guesses correctly that what Bang-won really can’t stand is feeling powerless. This strikes a chord with Bang-won, who remembers Minister Hong’s prediction regarding his fear of weakness. And that fear is its own weakness, though at least Ha Ryun agrees to drop the matter and work together with him.

With their two heads combined, they begin to work through what they know. Ji Cheon-tae must be from either Jukryong’s camp or Cho-young’s, since they’re the only ones who could provide the information Nameless uses to control and manipulate people.

Looking back, Bang-won now wonders whether Nameless was behind Jukryong giving him that free bit of intel on General Choi, since nothing is ever free with him. But their biggest break comes when Ha Ryun explains just how much time (three years) it would’ve taken someone to learn to forge Jo Joon’s handwriting for the three letters he never sent out.

There is the possibility that both Biguk Temple and Hwasadan were just hired by Nameless, Ha Ryun reasons, which gives Bang-won a lightbulb moment when it comes to Ji Cheon-tae. He leaves without sharing the details.

He tells Boon-yi and Moo-hyul that Nameless must be losing their minds right now trying to find out who sent the assassins, since they’d have no idea whether they were sent for the prince or Traitor Baek. He plans to use this against them and enlists Master Hong to stand in for the blacksmith who hired out the assassins to them, that way when Nameless comes looking, they’ll find him.

Jo Joon is outraged when Bang-won tells him that his father has chosen to support Prince Jungchang for the throne, angrily demanding to know why the general is dragging his feet when it comes to assuming the throne. He’s not convinced, even when Bang-won tells him that it’s all so Jung Mong-joo will come to support their cause.

Speaking of, we find Jung Mong-joo with Prince Jungchang as he vows that he has nothing to do with Nameless. Unaware that Sa-kyung is listening in, he lights up like a Christmas tree when the prince agrees to take the throne, and is all to happy to swear his undying loyalty to him.

Bang-won ends up eavesdropping when Jo Joon and Officer Nam go to Jung Do-jeon to demand answers. He soothes them by claiming that he’s using a five point plan to convince Jung Mong-joo, otherwise known as ohchik, which soothes Bang-won’s fears as well.

Eldest son Bang-woo ends up overhearing their shouting match inside, and bursts in the second he hears their talk of making his father king. Having no idea that was their original intent, he’s outraged at the idea that they’re setting out to make his father a traitor.

At least he seems pleased when his father claims the opposite is true, and that they’ll focus on Prince Jungchang. Guess they’re going to put off telling him the truth for as long as they can.

Lee Seong-gye, Jung Do-jeon, and Jung Mong-joo are all who’s needed to throw their support in for Prince Jungchang. Prince Chang is dethroned and sent away with exile, along with his father.

Prince Jungchang is crowned and becomes KING GONGYANG, while Sa-kyung is left to… trim her nails? It makes sense once she emerges dressed in men’s garb, unable to be more than a bodyguard to her one true love now that he’s king.

Cho-young sends her head Amazonian spy to Master Hong’s Blacksmithery, and it’s hilarious how he thinks he has to disguise his voice in order to play the part convincingly. She leaves with their ledger in hand, which of course was placed there by Bang-won.

Of course, they weren’t expecting a second party from Biguk Temple to arrive looking for the same ledger, and Master Hong is quick to tell them that someone from Hwasadan already came and took it.

Gab-boon takes this answer back to Bang-won, though just the fact that both parties showed up doesn’t mean they’re part of Nameless, since they could’ve just been hired by them to retrieve the record. He plans to wait and draw Nameless out.

Jukryong reports to Yooksan that Hwasadan got ahold of the ledger first, and believes that they’re agents of King Gongyang. But Yooksan isn’t at all concerned as he invites Ji Cheon-tae in… who turns out to be none other than Cho-young.

She’s just as surprised to see Jukryong as he is to see her, and Yooksan gleefully introduces them to each other. Neither knew that they were working for the same organization until now, which is why Yooksan wasn’t concerned about the ledger. He knew Cho-young would bring it to him.

Yooksan opens it to find a letter from Bang-won inside, intentionally addressed to whoever would read it from Nameless as he baits them on their failed “break the ash flower’s stem before it blooms” plan. Just like Bang-won wanted, Yooksan reels at the letter, while Jukryong wonders if there’s a spy in their midst.

Da-kyung is yet another disappointed supporter when she finds out that Lee Seong-gye won’t be assuming the throne, and when Bang-won tells her it’s his father and Jung Do-jeon’s wish, she replies that he shouldn’t be such a yes-man when it comes to those two.

And though Jung Do-jeon and Jung Mong-joo worked together to make the crowning happen, there’s an air of tension between the two after. Poeun is determined to make his colleague give up on his grand plan, while Jung Do-jeon is just as determined to convince him.

Lee Seong-gye hosts a celebratory dinner at Dohwa Manor, and Ji-ran even gets to crack wise about assassins waiting in the wings, considering how their last banquet turned out. He’s invited Bang-won, Bang-ji, and Moo-hyul, having to reassure the latter two that yes, he wants them to sit at the table with him, and yes, it’ll be okay.

It’s a great honor for them, which Jung Do-jeon recognizes by raising his glass in a toast to an end to the turbulent times they’ve been living in. Everyone’s excited at the thought of this regime change bringing peace and prosperity, and poor Ji-ran gets ribbed for declaring that he’d like to write a poem once peaceful times are upon them.

Young-kyu’s manlier dream is to be remembered in history, while Jung Do-jeon’s is to leave a record behind for future generations. Should peace come, he wants to spend all his time writing books so that everything he’s learned can be kept and read for centuries to come.

Afterward, Bang-ji calls Moo-hyul out on murmuring under his breath during the whole “What’s your dream?” exchange, since he’d been preparing an answer should anyone have called on him. (Awwwwww.) It only takes the gentlest of prodding from Boon-yi for him to open up, but even then, he just says he’s already told Bang-won.

Bang-won remembers that moment, and how Moo-hyul said he’d be his bodyguard so that he could witness the moment Bang-won changed the world for the better and be satisfied.

It’s Bang-ji’s turn next, and he admits that his is to make Boon-yi’s dream come true and to find their mother. Boon-yi turns the question to the last holdout, Bang-won, who flushes from embarrassment when asked. “I want to make the people smile, and protect all of your dreams.”

As for the how, Bang-won says it’ll be through helpful politics, which everyone knows is a surefire way to make people happy. Bang-ji thinks he’ll achieve his dream, and everyone smiles. These guys need to be together more.

It’s not long before Yooksan comes calling on Bang-won, which is just what the latter wanted. Yooksan is under the belief that they got one of their Nameless captives to spill the beans about the ash flower plan, and tells Bang-won to stay in the shallow pool where he belongs.

He drops a letter for him and plans to leave with that, only to be stopped when Bang-won calls the code phrase after him: “He who was not there in the beginning exists forever. He who is nameless shall never disappear.” Does he think they also wrung that from the captive?

Yooksan is wary of Bang-won’s motives even after hearing this, guessing that his aim is to sow discord within Nameless by getting them to suspect each other as possible traitors. That’s exactly what Bang-won wants, and he gets it when he mentions a specific name: “How much do you trust Ji Cheon-tae?”

That name gets under Yooksan’s skin, since there’s no possible way he’d know all these things without there being a spy. He brings the issue up with Ji Cheon-tae/Cho-young herself, and charges her with finding and plugging the information leak happening on her end.

She turns to Yeon-hee as the first possible suspect, which is a consequence I’d be surprised if Bang-won thought of. Telling her that she’ll remove her from her current assignment, Cho-young’s last task for Yeon-hee is that she find out what Jung Mong-joo and Jung Do-jeon are planning by tomorrow.

So I was wrong to doubt Bang-won, since he not only thought of Yeon-hee’s involvement, but counted on it and her to report back to him whatever Cho-young said. He tells her to include the word Maengdo in her report tomorrow, and that if Cho-young responds by mentioning Maengdo Chilyak, then it means she’s Nameless.

Yeon-hee’s first concern is that Cho-young might have found out about this Maengdo Chilyak another way, only for Bang-won to smile and shake his head. “That’s not possible. It’s just a term I made up.” Genius!

Bang-won arranges all his father’s men to lie in wait for Yeon-hee to give them confirmation of her Nameless status after her meeting with Cho-young. If they receive it, they’ll ambush and arrest Cho-young.

Yeon-hee tells Jung Do-jeon about Bang-won’s plan, and he tells her of his plan to meet with Jung Mong-joo and convince him using Ohshik, his five point plan.

But somehow, no one’s noticed Cho-young hiding in the cave, eavesdropping on their conversation. She comes upon Yeon-hee in the nearby forest, deliberately avoiding the trap Bang-won’s set, and asks her where and when Jung Do-jeon will meet Jung Mong-joo today.

Yeon-hee claims she didn’t hear exactly where, which Cho-young knows to be a lie. She even tells Yeon-hee so, moments before her Amazonian warriors surround her with swords drawn. “I will give you one last chance,” Cho-young proclaims. “What is Maengdo Chilyak?”

And that’s Yeon-hee’s proof that Cho-young is Ji Cheon-tae, an agent of Nameless.

Bang-ji grows nervous when Yeon-hee doesn’t show up for her scheduled meeting, but Bang-won is the one to go marching into the square to call on his men to come out of hiding.

Yeon-hee is bound and gagged to be carried away, while Cho-young makes preparations to go to Jung Do-jeon and Jung Mong-joo’s meeting place. She doesn’t stay gagged for long, and tells all the Amazonians who Nameless is, and why it’s bad that their leader is a part of it.

It seems like she might be able to sway them, but she still gets some added help in the form of Bang-won & Co. when they come to save her. Bang-won tells them that they were unwitting puppets of Nameless, and Yeon-hee adds fuel to the flames by making the girls realize they’ve been fooled.

The one who doesn’t believe Yeon-hee gets cut down by their leader in a moment of decision, and she’s quick to proclaim that they are not Nameless to Bang-won. But they don’t release Yeon-hee.

Bang-won rushes off toward Jung Do-jeon’s meeting place after a tip from Yeon-hee, where the worst Cho-young is doing is eavesdropping on their conversation.

She’s interrupted by a sword being held to her neck, and turns to find Bang-ji on the other end of it. Bang-won saunters in and asks her if she’ll kill herself, only for Cho-young to spit that that’s only for the grunts.

The next room over, the scholars’ conversation goes uninterrupted, and Bang-won is able to listen in. Jung Do-jeon talks about how the king of his new country should be nothing more than a flower on a tree whose roots are made up of Confucian scholars and appointed officials.

He wants to limit the king’s power so that the only position he can appoint is that of prime minister, leaving Jung Mong-joo wondering what the king can do. Bang-won is likewise stunned by the words coming out of Jung Do-jeon’s mouth, even though Poeun is still rapt with attention.

Jung Do-jeon’s next edict for the new king will be that no royal family members can participate in politics, and it’s only when Bang-won staggers back that the weight of this comes crashing down on him.

The dream he just shared suddenly comes flooding back to him as he realizes that he won’t be able to participate in politics should his father become king.

And Ha Ryun’s voice comes back to him then, reiterating his worst fear: that of being powerless.

COMMENTS

It was strangely difficult to watch that last scene without a modern perspective, since all the reforms Jung Do-jeon talks about sound perfectly sane and normal to those of us enjoying the comforts of the 21st century. I found myself watching Bang-won’s shocked reactions almost impatiently, unable to comprehend why he looked like he’d been punched in the stomach while Jung Mong-joo was taking the progressive ideas in stride.

But then I realized that it wasn’t the progressiveness that had Bang-won so taken aback, since he’s had a pretty good idea of just how revolutionary Jung Do-jeon’s cause was from the start. When it came to land reform, nepotism, and a checks and balances system, Bang-won was chomping at the bit to spill blood in order to get things done faster. So far, the only force that’s been holding him back has been Jung Do-jeon, and his seemingly endless wealth of patience. If that’s gone, then what?

So now, I’m beginning to see how their relationship might begin to fracture, and that’s discounting how much history is a spoiler. We’ve seen them discuss the New Joseon plan in detail, but never before have we (or Bang-won) heard Jung Do-jeon’s plan for checking the king’s power. Even if it all sounds so familiar, since the basic tenants he’s talking about, with the king being the decorative flower while scholars and officials make up the roots, is exactly what the secret society in Tree With Deep Roots believed. If this is a prequel, and it is, then Jung Do-jeon is setting up the foundation for what would become Joseon and a climate where such an organization exists solely to reroute the king’s power.

The reason why Bang-won is so affected by this part of Jung Do-jeon’s plan and not any other is because it means he’ll have no position, no power, and no ability to enact the change he seeks. I’ll be the first to admit that his dream doesn’t at all sound like him, and the idea that he wants to make the people smile seems like a dream a Disney princess would have. Granted, said princess wouldn’t say that they’d do so through politics, but the optimistic idea is the same. And I don’t know why it’s more shocking that Bang-won is so idealistic, when we saw him grow up and have seen the side of him that screams for justice at any cost.

And that all goes to say that I’m thrilled with this new twist Dragons has thrown in, since Bang-won had been kind of sizzling on the back burner for what feels like too long. It’s effectively renewed my interest in his character and struggle, even if he’ll have to do the bulk of that from within—only he’ll be able to tell whether he’s been in this for the cause itself, or for the power he thought was waiting on the other side. But if it means him executing more daring plans in the future, I’m down like a clown, as they definitely don’t say.

261

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1 sam

January 13, 2016 at 8:26 PM

how could you jeong do jeong, he is trying to size power for himself. The lee family will simply be his flower . King having no power.

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Kiara

January 13, 2016 at 10:30 PM

A Constitutional Monarchy is really that bad?

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Kiara

January 13, 2016 at 11:42 PM

or it didn't belong in that era of Confucianism?

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shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 5:12 AM

i don't know if it's bad or not.cause we don't know what happen if JDJ win against BW. but what I hate is the fact that he uses the lee family to achieve what he wants, and end up making them as a puppet/decoration...the fact he doesn't tell the truth his plans before asking their cooperation is already a bad move and now he wants to weaken them and excluded them from politics,he's crazy..in earlier ep, there's a quote he said that he uses LSG..

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nara

January 14, 2016 at 5:35 AM

i think you see for some reason JDJ as someone who wants power and to control
i think he chose LSG (and not the whole lee) bc they share the same goal and ideals
he doesnt want to use him he wants to work with him towards the same goal
for LSG being powerless as long as the citizent are protected is NOT a problem it is fro LBW but not LSG and not his eldest sons who follow him
the only ine to not share his ideals is LBW who would make his own way of ruling
but LSG is not used he is a participant and that why the both of them later preferred the 8th son to LBW
to me JDJ is not as scary as LBW
and LBW wanted to be remembered as a good king therefore made progress for the ppl but if they would have chalenged him in a revolt he would have killed his citizens without thinking twice
this is the way of a tyrant and unlike his brother he would have never ivven up his throne to his brother
i know he later gave up to his son but it was in name only LD was a puppet king for his father

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Iriwa~anajwo~

May 24, 2017 at 6:52 AM

i'm rewatching dragons and for the first time reading recaps of this show.
Only now i realized that lee bang won here, is the same lee bang won in TWDR.
I didn't pay too much attention to the time sequence and thought TWDR was yeaaaars later after dragons. can't believe this lee bang won would be the hateful lee bang won who made Lee Do as puppet king

Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 7:16 AM

There are many countries today with a constitutional monarchy (Europe for example).
Look at England, the monarchs is separated from the government. The prime minister and the ministers are running the country.

Prime Minister: head of the government.
Cabinet: senior members of the government (20).
Other Ministers: chosen by the prime minister from the house of commons/lords (97).
Total members: 119.

This is the kind of government that Sambong was dreaming about. That is his justification for planning the revolution.

A government that is run by qualified and talented ministers and that is why he is trying to make changes with the civil exams. Instead of the corrupt ministers permitting their own sons and people to enter Dodang without taking the civil exams and taking over their positions like an inheritance. He is trying to change it so everyone must take the civil exams no matter who they are before entering Dodang.

An era of Confucianism is what makes it very challenging in comparison to today's Constitutional Monarchy. The social class system only allows the noble class to have an education and take the civil exams.

We can only guess if it was going to work or not because it didn't happen.
Maybe Bang-won's ideal government of Absolute Monarchy was what the newborn Joseon needed at the time.

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Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM

@shirayukihime
I love your passion, if only it was not so one sided we could've gotten into some interesting debates.

Take a deep breath, it's ok. The Lee family did survive and wrote Goryeo's history.

Drama:
In the beginning there was a lowly, poor, powerless, scholar named Sambong. He is seen stealing a poor man's lunch (sharing without permission). We quickly found out from where he is heading that he is more than just a poor scholar. He has a dark secret hidden in a dark cave. A map is shown embedded on the cave wall with the name "Joseon." Wowzer, what the heck is he thinking? Crazy Brilliant Traitor!

I think the show did a good job in showing his years of wanderings among the peasants and finally meeting Lee Seong-gye.
He had a dream/plan but he was powerless to make it happen on his own. He had the brainpower but no military power to carry it out. Lee Seong-gye had the best army in the nation and that's why he seeked him out.

This Lee Seong-gye is a bit indecisive imo. I wonder if that is the reason why Sambong is feeding him the details of the plan one at a time. I also think that his plan was not set in stone from the beginning. He was also learning as he goes.

Lee had no interest in politics to begin with and doesn't seems to passionately want to be king. He just want to protect his people.
Maybe he is also the kind of partner/friend that Sambong would easily manipulate or take advantage of. Not because Lee Seong-gye is stupid but because his talent is on the battlefield and not with politics.

Tich Tran

February 29, 2016 at 7:06 PM

And Jeon Do Jeong have NO QUALM ABOUT THE CASTE/SOCIAL CLASS SYSTEM. According to his confucianist viewpoint the top was the bureacrats(ie yangbang), second the scholars(of confucianism not science or math) and third artisans(craftmens not artists ie actors, singers, etc) /farmers. Everyone below that including the entertainers(actors), shamans, buddhists(JDJ PERSECUTED THEM), merchants(ie businesspeople) were considered "vicious". They were considered dregs on the society.

2 shirayukihime

January 13, 2016 at 8:27 PM

Nice explanation guys.. Thanks for fast update.. I've been waiting for this and checking the recaps.. I like JDJ's idea but what I hate about him is not telling the others about what will happen next. he just plans it out secretly and chooses people who will tell about it. It's the same of using them to establish the country he wants. There's lacking rapport between them. He didn't tell them that the next royal family will be just a puppet of a prime minister. BW doesn't like that idea espcially being added that a royal family will not have the power to particpate in the politics.. He's obviously using lSG.. A man like him with no back up so he needs LSG to do what he wants..
AS i remember , it was Min clan is one of the noble clans in the goryeo dynasty. It was Min Je at 1382 that decided to make BW as his son in law.. then that must be why he approach LSG? LSG are in laws of the Min clan and lSG is known as a great general of goryeo.. so taht must be why.. I don't like the idea about why he didn't bring it up from the start.. he should have talk them about it and see if they are willing to help him..

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shirayukihime

January 13, 2016 at 8:39 PM

I just hate him for not involving everyone in this discussion....tssk.... so annoying that the LEE family and others have the greater contribution to this but didn't even included them to this discussion. He should have tell them from the start..I am seeing the future of Joseon with JDJ collapse..This is what during the late Joseon dynasty, the kings reduced to a figurehead while Andong Kim Clan control the politics for 60years..

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Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 12:18 AM

I'm trying to figure out what you are trying to say but I don't get where the drama ends where the history starts and your own thoughts. It's all mixed together and it's confusing.

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sunnyl

January 14, 2016 at 4:32 AM

Confusing, and also the hard part is figuring out who is the fictional character and who is not. But I am not looking for historical accuracy in this drama, rather watching for fictional parts which are much more interesting: And I love
1. There is no weak female characters,
2. Actual torture scenes are skipped (mostly).

I can see JDJ's point of view and Bangwon's also. Just matter of who is the stronger/smarter one - Here you go -KillBangWon (his new nick by knetz)!

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Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 7:39 AM

This is not an authentic sageuk obviously so I'm following both the history and the fictional parts in connection to TWDR.

We all have our bias and preference :). For me, I'm watching for Kim Myung Min's Sambong for the history and Warrior Moo-hyul for the fantasy fictional part of it.

I think they made a smart move by skipping Choi Young's torture and execution. We see him in prison and that was it.

I also see both Bang-won and Sambong's point of view. Interesting stuff!

crazyahjummafan

January 13, 2016 at 9:28 PM

I agree with you. He's only divulging information to certain people and it's not fair or good. It's not just Bang-won and probably his father, who didn't know about JDJ's idea of a puppet king. Bang Woo, didn't even know that they were thinking of making his father king.

Frankly, if JDJ simply wanted a puppet king, why choose LSG? He could simply choose a less powerful man who has no brilliant sons. LSG could still help him, but not as the intended king. Poor Bang-won.

Anyway, if JDJ had his way, Koreans would still be writing with Chinese characters. Now I know how brilliant King Sejong came about. With a genius father like BW and an intuitive and intelligent mother like Da-kyung, no wonder he was able to come up with the Korean alphabet.

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nara

January 14, 2016 at 5:42 AM

LSG doesnt particularly wants to become a king as much as the king now (forgot his name) that is why JDJ chose him
he didnt want some power tyrant
LSG can probably imagine JDJ since there is no specific "job" for the king in his scheme so it is most reasonable to assume LSG understand this is not an absolute ruling and doesnt mind it at all
the only power crazy here is LBW who now disclosed to us how power hungry he really is

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crazyahjummafan

January 14, 2016 at 5:51 PM

Precisely my point! LSG didn't want to be king, but JDJ persuaded him WITHOLDING the point that he would be a powerless one.

Even though the idea to have checks and balances made to the monarchy came later, JDJ should have discussed it with LSG. You don't ask someone to start a new kingdom with you as king, without discussing the kind of authority he would have. He should have even discussed it with ALL those helping him out, especially LSG's sons. He of all people should know, that you can't just put a man on the throne without his family being involved, especially when he has grown up sons who are actually helping you out with your big dream.

It simply shows that JDJ just wants control all this time. He doesn't want to be king, because the king has no power, but he wants to be the one controlling the king. He knows that the people will accept LSG better as king because of what he has accomplished in the military (and of course, because he has the people's interest at heart - at least I hope so). In essence, he wants to be the puppet master, rather than the puppet.

One can argue that perhaps he did not tell BW cos he knows that BW would not accept it. But I feel that he should try, in the same way that he tried to convince Poeun. If not, then he just comes across as someone who uses and manipulates people. This is not just his dream, but the dream of others too. And I think that was his biggest mistake.

I admired him for his vision and unwavering determination to make his nation into something better, but now, a lot of that admiration is waning. If he has a vision and dream, he should share it all, not get people to support you by deceiving them. It's like telling a group of children that you are going to bring them out to buy candy, and after they go with you to buy the candy - on the way, they protect you and stop others from deterring you - then, you tell them that the candy is actually not for them. So wrong, so wrong.

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mary

January 14, 2016 at 10:32 PM

+1000000000000000000

I love that JDJ isn't painted as the champion of justice and he's just a manipulator (possibly the biggest one) who uses unsavory tactics from time to time. Just like everyone else.

nara

January 16, 2016 at 4:13 AM

a new king
LSG knows JDJ philosophy
you see a king in only one way for LSG a king is just a word
for LBW a king is status
ppl see words differently
you have to choose what definition applies to you

crazyahjummafan

January 16, 2016 at 6:39 AM

@nara
"a new king
LSG knows JDJ philosophy
you see a king in only one way for LSG a king is just a word
for LBW a king is status
ppl see words differently
you have to choose what definition applies to you"

I have to disagree with you.
LSG was not privy to ALL of JDJ's ideas and philosophy. He is not a Confucian scholar, so he only knows what JDJ tells him. So far, JDJ has only told him that he wants him to be king in his new 'country' because he cares for the people. If JDJ has said otherwise, it was not shown in the drama. To LSG, a king is someone with authority and power, cos all the past Korean kings were like that, so he wouldn't be able to know any different unless JDJ tells him.

nara

January 17, 2016 at 1:37 AM

i didnt mean that he knew everything but he knew who JDJ is and what he represent LSG doesnt give the feeling that he really wants to know
he doesnt want to bcome a king and the only reason he is will do it is because JDJ tells him there is no other way to change the present government\ruling
he is willing to leave everything in JDJ hands which is why JDJ chose him
as JDJ wants a king that is willing to share and even give up political life to the ministers
the one post affronted is LBW who has a different way of seeing things

i didnt get the LSG thinks kings has power the only ppl he seemed to confront or care was the others ministers - this is what i got from him i dont remember him describing how he thought a king should be - but maybe i ddint pay close attention but i dont remember that

3 PeepsLeAwesomePotato

January 13, 2016 at 8:29 PM

I'm with BangWon on this one. Why even have a king if he's just gonna be a vase? Even in modern politics, I don't ubderstsnd the need for a useless figurehead monarch/president except for tourism purposes... which I bet is almost zero in Goryeo/ Joseon.

I'm not surprised that Bang

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PeepsLeAwesomePotato

January 13, 2016 at 8:35 PM

Bang Won is idealistic. Even if he screams justice or has gone through the trials in prison, he hasn't actually had anyone or experience anything big enough to shake his worldview and open his eys to the cruel world of politics. The biggest contributor to that is him being the son of Lee SeongGye who is still in power and actually gaining even more power. He does as Jung DoJeon says regarding Jung MongJoo just because he trusts Jung DoJeon for now which doesn't speak much in favour of him having multi-level perspective analyses and understanding just how cruel the world and people can be.

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CaroleMcDonnell

January 14, 2016 at 12:37 AM

I remember reading about what the most powerful and least powewrful kinds of government are. I forgot who said it.

If I recall, the order of preference was.
Absolute Rule by one good man
Absolute by a ruling class of good man
Absolute rule by the people.

A good honorable all-powerful king is the best. A vicious all-powerful king is the worst.

As for LSG, I find it wrong to risk the life of a great soldier to make him become a useless king. Would LSG want to be king, let alone a powerless king?

Bang Won has seen his dad go through hell and near-assassination; why go through all that just to become a sitting target with no real power? Confucianism has a mega-caste system and its ingrained in Korean society even now. There is no way the rich would allow equal property distribution.

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nara

January 14, 2016 at 5:47 AM

absolute in NEVER good since the person lose perspective and change
a person who was always considered good and constantly praised can become so sure of himself
that ant criticism would be ignored not bc of viciousness but vain he is too used to being right he can perceive the possibility of being worng

thats why democratic leaders have a limited times they can be elected - democratic governing learned from their mistakes and decided to limit any person leadership
even by the choice of the ppl

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PeepsLeAwesomePotato

January 14, 2016 at 6:26 AM

That's why the first order of preference is 'absolute rule by one good man with the emphasis being on "good man". If the man changes to become worse then he is no longer a good man and the governance is no longer the best possible.

But that doesn't mean that absolute rule is never good, especially when it comes to making and implementing difficult and undesirable (to the incumbents) but needed (by the populace) choices in governance. Just look at the land reform in the drama and how 'democracy' is putting it off.

I don't really get your last paragraph but if you're implying that it is (automatically) good that democratic leaders can only serve for limited time (like 8 years for the US), then I will have to disagree with you. To me, if a leader is good, then he should stay in power for as long as he can and as long as the people he serves desires/ agrees. Because it is easier to implement and maintain long term plans with a stable government and a committed leader than to see or fear changing plans every time a leader's term comes to an end. Take for example education: that's not something you can plan and see the results come to fruition in just 8 years. Without such stability, there would only be chaos or plans will keep coming to end without showing their full potential.

PeepsLeAwesomePotato

January 14, 2016 at 6:03 AM

Thomas Hobbes?

I agree with your 'leadership preference'.

It's easier to move with power than to keep being stalled just because there are different ideas and approaches (Even if the end goal is the same).

To me, drama-Lee SeongGye doesn't even want to be king. He just wanted a better life for the people for whom he has always risked and served his whole life for. I guess you could say that he wanted greater purpose to what he was doing but he didn't want the responsibility and spotlight if possible.

Your whole last paragraph: Yup.

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nara

January 14, 2016 at 6:07 AM

not only him i think there are countless philosophers that think that and you can find also in modern writings
i just completely disagree

nara

January 14, 2016 at 6:09 AM

i agree with your LSG analysis and maybe he was like that for real who knows

nara

January 14, 2016 at 7:04 AM

@peeps what i meant that over time it was decided from experience that a leader would have a limited time because he can lose perspective
this limited time was added and not originally in democratic governments whas was the ppl choice is the only thing that matters
as much as limiting or removing extreme parties from elections so there wouldnt be a repetition of hitler that was chosen by the ppl
the process of voting developed over time

GOOD or BAD this is the question
who decides? are you confident that you good is an absolute goodness? is your good better than mine or someone else?
that is why absolute is never "good"
definition of good is relative thats exactly why there can never be an absolute good leader since there is NO absolute good or good person

Adal

January 14, 2016 at 2:23 PM

@Peeps

I'm with you on this.

Why have a monarchy if they are going to be nothing more than a figure head for decorative purposes? Why not do away with the monarchy entirely then? And form a system of government like the Americans where an elected official has the power that comes with his office to run the country with appropriate checks and balances such as the Senate and House of congress?

Don't misunderstand, I have full respect and regard for the monarchy, but my argument is that there should be some degree of power and independent action from those at the top. Not just a puppet or a figurehead king.

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shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 4:22 PM

Easy to say than done.. the question first is why don't they eliminate the caste system first ??? Monarchy is a traditional way to rule and it exist for a thousand years so it's really hard to eliminate..What I don't understand is when they create the new country, why don't they eliminate the caste system? but they don't...there still slaves.. and what most painful is it's heriditary.. It's really hard cause most the one who benefit this is the rich people/yangban.. they can study , and apply for the government posts but slaves and commoners can't cause no money and slaves were not allowed. and it is the same with the illegimate children. But during King Taejong and King Sejong's reign, there's exist a slave who became the greatest scientist under the support of King Taejong... and then there's King Sejong, son of King Taejong invented korean alphabet for the commoners who can't and wasn't allowed to read and write chinese characters..

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Tich Tran

February 29, 2016 at 7:34 AM

Because to JDJ a confucianist anyone below the three caste(burecrat ie yangbang), scholar, artisans(craftmen not artists/entertainers) are considered "VICIOUS". Including entertainers(ie actors ironcially), shamans, merchants(ie businesspeople), WOMEN(yangbang women were forced to stay at home during day time during joseon), etc. Yep JDJ would be considered a conservative today.

Tich Tran

February 29, 2016 at 7:35 AM

I am sick and tired of people prasing confucianism depise it caste and anti woman system.

Tich Tran

February 29, 2016 at 7:37 AM

Don't like the truth confucists ?! Too bad.

4 sam

January 13, 2016 at 8:41 PM

he just told yeon hee and nam eun because they believe in him unconditionally. he plan to use lee seong gye and his family to establish a country and then get all the power by himself. He knows they wouldn't agree to it so he is waiting until the country is establish to take power from them

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shirayukihime

January 13, 2016 at 8:48 PM

LSG accepted him in the end.. and believe in his words.. his biggest rival is BW.. we can see how LSG was supposed as the successor cause he's the most capable.. but JDJ and his wife disapproved it.. they said that LSg should chose the son who he loves the most than the one who is capable.. So LSg choose the helpless Bang Seok.. so Bangseok will be more a puppet of JDJ while JDJ gains power in the court.. JDJ didn't tell Jo Joon about it. that must be why he will oppose JDJ later on.. I heard that Jo Joon wanted BW as the successor.. He said that for turbulent times, BW is a good candidate..
I am so excited for Jo Joon , Ha ryun siding with BW after the establishing of Joseon..My favorite prime minister are Ha Ryun, Hwang Hui( prime Minister of King sejong) and Han Myung Hoe (Prime minister of King SEjo.)

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shirayukihime

January 13, 2016 at 8:50 PM

*LSg was supposed to choose BW as a successor..

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nara

January 14, 2016 at 5:48 AM

why exactly LSG was supposed to choose LBW?
on what basis?

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nara

January 14, 2016 at 5:53 AM

king thought semselves as almost as gods - it is really difficult to fight a god
even in our "enlightened" time it is most difficult so much more then
kings did not prove themselves as good rulers anywhere
and you read more about war than peace during those times
and the citizens were the puppets of kings having no rights or say in anything
it is only luck and in my point of view LBW need to be remembered as a good king that made him not disregard his citizens

PeepsLeAwesomePotato

January 14, 2016 at 6:32 AM

According to Wikipedia, real-Lee SeongGye thought real-BangWon to be the best ruler during those chaotic times.

To me, a ruler is good or not depending how he rules according to the situation he is in. A chaotic environment needs someone who is able to pull everyone together and show them and implement direction in order to achieve survival. In times of peace, democracy may be the better answer for reaching greater heights.

PeepsLeAwesomePotato

January 14, 2016 at 6:38 AM

I am not sure what you're trying to say in your later post, but I think that war and peace come together hand-in-hand during those times. Like in an earlier episode, Jung DoJeon showed how the traditional chinese word for country actually had the symbol for sword as representation of using a sword to protect one's country. Peace does not always mean no war.

And real Lee BangWon/ King TaeJong being able to implement so many changes beneficial for the citizens in that new-found country is not luck at all (said a little cruder: Luck, my ass)

nara

January 14, 2016 at 7:30 AM

i dont understand what you mean in war and peace come together they are the opposite
war have different reason or different method of achieving results
do you mean that we need war to create peace? if thats so there can never be peace

and what i mean is what is good NOW is also good THEN
humanity became this way out of learning and selective choices not by default
if its not by default it means now > then
so if we think today is good it was also good then

the LUCK was not reffered to LBW but the citizens that they were either lucky in their king or not

i said LBW wanted to be remembered as a GOOD king therefore implemented those changes and if the citizens showed any kind of revolt he would have killed them without a second thought

LSG wanted his 8th son to rule and was scared of LBW who exiled him therefore this statement only strengthens my view of LBW wanting to be remembered as a good king
forcing his own father to admit to that

Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 10:43 AM

Wikipedia and Korean history is not always correct. I can go in there and say that Band-won was 6.7 tall with blond hair and people will probably believe it.

@peeps
Excluding wikipedia you might find out that Bang-won was not Lee Seong-gye's first choice as crown prince.
That was an assumption based on his contribution to the founding of Joseon.

And while we are at it, can we stop blaming Sambong alone for choosing Seong-gye's favorite son? He did not pick the boy himself, his father did and he supported his decision.
He was also asked to be his son's teacher together with Nam by his father.

This was the cause of the first strife of the princes. Who should be blame? The one who made the decision, the one who supported him or both? His queen also played a role in it, afterall he was her biological son.

Maybe Sambong should've advised the king that it's an unfair decision towards his older sons who were more capable of ruling the country. He might have been alive back then if he did that.

nara

January 14, 2016 at 10:45 AM

@peeps from homura in soompi forum (http://bodashiri.tumblr.com/archive)

"in wikipedia LSG said LBW was the best choice for a king is it true? i thought he wanted his 8th son to become a king "

No, it is not true, according to the annals of Joseon dynasty.

In August 1392, one month after Joseon was founded, King Taejo (Yi Seong-Gye) discussed with his 3 core ministers (Jo Joon, Jung Do-Jeon, Bae Geuk-Ryeom) over who should be the Crown prince.

Yi Seong-Gye wanted to establish Yi Bang-Beon, the 7th son born from Queen Shindeok / Lady Gang (his second wife), as Crown prince because he loved and respected the queen so much.

King Taejo's first wife died one year before Joseon was founded. At that time, Lady Gang was the only queen of Joseon. She had made every efforts to support her husband with her powerful Gang clan. The king loved her so much. The actual power was in her hands. How could the ministers oppose to her?

One thing the ministers were afraid of was that Bang-Beon was too thoughtless and rash. They advised the king "If your majesty really want to choose one of the queen's 2 sons, the youngest one is better." Therefore, the king's 8th son Yi Bang-Seok was established as Crown prince at the age of 11.

nara

January 14, 2016 at 10:47 AM

sorry @kiara saw your post after posting mine
thanx for the explanation

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Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 11:02 AM

No don't be. That's an impressive collection of historical text from relevant sources. Good for Homura for helping out with the history. That's 100 times better than my own memory.

Thanks for sharing:).

Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 11:37 AM

You know, I'm really looking forward to Queen Sindeok (Seong-gye's queen) and Lady Min's battle for power. Queen Sindeok behind his son Bang-seok and Lady Min behind Bang-won. I hope they'll do it well.

This is the one time that I wish I didn't know the history ahead of time. The first queen of Joseon vs the political savvy Lady Min.
They should be given sufficient time for a political showdown. I'm tired of watching politics between men.

shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 1:37 PM

I agree.. i hope there's no more concubine fights.. i am tired seeing them in Tears of the Dragon and King Sejong the Great.I just hope they would be more focus with Lady Min and Queen Sindeok's battle.. and BW's reforms for the country.. I want to watch it

nara

January 14, 2016 at 4:45 PM

me too i was sure they would already started it since LK "forced" LM to go with her to that "ahdswan"? dont remeber how to writeit
you could see that LK is trying to make sure LM knows her place
cant wait to see her against LM

also i think LM also made LBW realize he wants to be king she is starting to turn himinto a political creature

shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 5:07 PM

@nara.. why did you say it?? don't mention the hwasadan group women party.. you added the fuel to the fire.. i have been trouble just remembering it.. They talked about it in ep. 19.. and it's already ep. 30 still nothing happens.. i think if that will happen , LK will humiliate LM in front of her friends.....and then for LM will say to herself that will be the last time to be lost against her.. and then next is the battle of queens after the establishment of joseon dynasty..XD...i want that. not the concubine fights.. i want the battle between queens..

nara

January 16, 2016 at 11:21 AM

he he he - witch laugh

Matala

January 15, 2016 at 4:11 AM

After all the lee family Went throught . After all they did in order to put sambong plan on....I think that sambong is not as white as we think... But I really love LBW ( his ideas , motivation, love for the people....) , he is still young so he will of course make mistakes .I think he likes power but his first motivatition is" people , justice ,no corruption ..." And I think that he Will keep his thought even with power.

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5 don'tknow

January 13, 2016 at 8:53 PM

I always think that everything happens for a reason, so maybe without what LBW did back then Joseon wouldn't have a chance.
Because even though JDJ ideas are logical to us who live in the now, but in reality to jump from what Goryeo was "a big mess" to where JDJ wants, would either need a powerful man who has the ability to sacrifice everything to make it possible for the people to live JDJ dream, or a group of very loyal men share the same goal and work together like a one.
I wouldn't say the second was easier at that time.

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nanachan

January 14, 2016 at 12:29 AM

i have no idea why its logical now? i don't want to pay more tax just for paying an expensive live of a flower aka king/president! they must have contributed to the state. the election is not cheap at all if only to pick flowers

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don'tknow

January 14, 2016 at 2:42 AM

I didn't mean "logical" as in to have a flower king. King is not the same as president, you can not elect kings! surely?
JDJ wanted a country where the power is not in one man hand, but he was living in a kingdom where it's expected to have a king to rule it. So he can't go from there and tell people we aren't going to have kings anymore! that's why he wanted to reduce the king's rule to little to nothing.
I'm with you that there is no need to have a king who do not contribute anything to his country.

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nara

January 14, 2016 at 6:03 AM

i dont know why ppl think that ppl then thought differently then they do now
ppl always wanted BY dream
which is live peacefully and respectfully
having more or less the same opportunities as others ppl psychology hasnt changed only their understanding of their rights
even then there were ppl entrepreneurs as vendors or other businesses even those pretend japanese are ppl trying to better their life albeit on the expense of others
ppl are the same and wee always the same
so what is better today would have been better then
if you dont want to go back or live in an absolute monarchy or tyranny why would they?

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PeepsLeAwesomePotato

January 14, 2016 at 6:48 AM

Absolute Monarchy =/= Tyranny. It all depends on the person in charge.

And what is better today does not necessarily mean it would have been better back then. We now have UN and other international bodies to affirm and recognize national borders to that wars don't arbitrarily start due to greed (although how (not) effective that was with regards to the middle east is something I won't comment on). We have the internet - communication is now a lot faster. We can travel between distant places within minutes. Out situations now and then are different because what we could do now and then, the threats that are possible and the solutions that are possible now and then are different. Knowledge itself was different.

Yes, the end-goal may always have been the same but the process will change with changing environments.

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nara

January 14, 2016 at 7:41 AM

tyranny is the ordinary definition of a king
king is a tyrant covered in myth

again today governing is a learning experience it is NOT a default

it only means that today lessons would have come sooner
the UN is recognized by the countries and not the other way around
the countries made the UN and recognize it

the UN didnt force itself on the countries it is a learning experience

every lesson learned now could have been learned sooner given the opportunity JDJ is a person of this era

given the opportunity this era would have become then and we would have lived on 'mars" by now

the human mind would have been used for other things much sooner than it happened

when historians say its better now they mean it is better living in countries we have now then the monarchies we had then - learning experience we did at the suffering of those then

drag_on

January 15, 2016 at 4:23 AM

This is so out of topic. Sorry, but, Nara-ssi, could you please put punctuation mark on your sentences please? I'd like to comprehend your interesting comments here more ;)

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CaroleMcDonnell

January 14, 2016 at 9:46 AM

LOL! True, but I suspect it bonds the people together. Symbols are powerful things. We don't have a king or a royal dynasty so we don't really feel it the way say...the Brits might feel about their royal family. But yeah..symbols..and symbols of the country can be very unifying when ministers, politicians, celebrities are always changing.

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Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 3:17 PM

I grew up in one and what you said is very true.

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6 Youngmin

January 13, 2016 at 9:10 PM

The writing for SFD continues to astound. The scriptwriters are truly excellent. Didn’t even feel the 30 episodes go by, it literally flew by. Excited to keep watching YAI grow from idealistic young man to taking charge of his “imminent fate” and change it. If its not for LBW, there will never be a Jang Young Shil under JDJ’s system where only the academically gifted were utilized.

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7 crazyahjummafan

January 13, 2016 at 9:40 PM

"As for the how, Bang-won says it’ll be through helpful politics, which everyone knows is a surefire way to make people happy. Bang-ji thinks he’ll achieve his dream, and everyone smiles. These guys need to be together more."

Yes, they do need to be together more. Like I said once before, if I could turn back the clock or perhaps in an alternate universe, I would want Bang-won as King, Boon-yi as his queen - this way, she will 'kill the bug in him' by allaying his fears of being powerless, and with her ability of rallying the common folk, they'll make a great team. I also won't doubt that Sejong aka Lee Do would be brilliant enough to come out with the Korean alphabet, because, Boon-yi too, is very intelligent and astute. Then Bang-ji can be the commander of the army and Moo-hyul the commander of the royal guards.

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sunnyxshin

January 17, 2016 at 2:04 AM

I'm late here because now I can only watch SFD on Sundays..T.T But I LOVE your comment, and I wanna see this on my screen!!

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8 crazyahjummafan

January 13, 2016 at 9:49 PM

I'm amazed that they still meet in the cave. I personally find it a very cool cave, but since Nameless already know where it is, why still meet there and plan covert activities? Especially when they know that people who enter can actually find dark corners to hide (as Bang-ji did much earlier) and eavesdrop.

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tess

January 14, 2016 at 1:18 AM

I was thinking the same thing! Why are they still meeting there and discussing important stuff?!

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9 As3beaniebean

January 13, 2016 at 9:51 PM

Can't wait for manslaughter Bang-won!

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10 Y

January 13, 2016 at 9:51 PM

It is interesting to see that JDJ now seems to parallel Nameless more and more in the way he works, albeit working towards different goals/objectives.
How different is he from Nameless who only provides enough information to each person to use them? He is doing the same, telling his compatriots only on a need to know basis

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Adal

January 14, 2016 at 2:50 PM

Good point.

I now understand why Nameless is trying so hard to make sure JDJ's reform fails and the current monarchy system continues. The tactics they use and JDJ uses are quite similar.

I often wondered in the past when watching dramas like 'Sungkyunkwan Scandal', 'The Fugitive of Joseon' and 'Moon Embracing the Sun' why the kings were so helpless. They were good kings who had great ideas and wished to implement them, but they were frustrated by an uncooperative cabinet and surrounded by a viperous royal family. I wish JDJ could have forseen the future, what would happen if the ministers themselves were corrupt and how hard it would be to check them. To be honest, it is easier to check an individual (say, a corrupt king) than a corrupt system (ministers).

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11 Adryana

January 13, 2016 at 10:18 PM

I'm rooting for Bang Won~
But I don't wanna see him joining The Moo Myung!

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crazyahjummafan

January 13, 2016 at 10:32 PM

Will he?

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shirayukihime

January 13, 2016 at 10:54 PM

in the preview, Cho young recommend BW as a sword..Moo myung hated JDJ and JMJ>>so thy will use BW to kill those two....since now BW hated JDJ ..and he even lied to BW that everything is good...tssk...that's too bad..when he said that JDJ is smiling..that's very insulting since he knows JDJ is just using them..

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Commentcomment

January 14, 2016 at 12:07 AM

Only as a sword, a weapon, meaning they would only use him, but i doubt it would be easy to control bangwon's actions

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shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 12:49 AM

hahaha.right..he'll pretend but will end killing them in the end...:) seriously, why do i remember han myung hoe in the TWDR... in the history, prime minister of King Munjong's reign,after the king died the prime minister KIm Jong SEo tried to control the court and extend his power against the royal family (so more like another JDJ version again) then there's political instability again since the crown prince Danjong is young,the power of royal family weakened, but han myung hoe told grand prince suyang to revolt and usurp the throne..grand prince suyang later known as King Sejo was similar to King Taejong..Han Myung Hoe became the prime minister of King Sejo...In the last ep of TWDR ,it said they will use Sejo..so it was like that...maybe king taejong's situation will be similar to King Sejo... Ha ryun ,the king maker advice BW to take the throne and Ha Ryun became the prime minister

shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 12:51 AM

nameless purpose is confusing..i don't know what they want...

PeepsLeAwesomePotato

January 14, 2016 at 6:55 AM

@shirayukihime: Yeah. I don't know what Nameless' deal is. It's like their goal is just to oppose... everything.

The only thing I could think of is that Nameless is based in Yuan (the empire) and its goal is to keep Goryeo under Yuan rule/ continue to be a vassal state under Yuan. But then the old guy brings out a blood letter from Goryeo's TaeJo and I'm stumped because Yuan wasn't even formed until after Goryeo's TaeJo died.

Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 3:36 PM

Nameless obviously have their own agenda and their own interest to protect. If they are indeed the Haedong Gapjok that we suspect them to be then they want to preserve Goryeo so they can keep their land and wealth.

They are not after the Moderate party (Poeun, Choi Young, Teacher Lee Saek, Lee In Gyeom etc) because they are loyal to Goryeo and they are not standing in their way.
Lee Seong-gye/Sambong, Woojae (Jo Joon) and their reforms are the real threat. The land reform that they are trying to pass will totally destroy their 700+ year legacy.

shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 4:45 PM

@kiara @peeps thanks for the information.. Whenever I think of Nameless, I remember Lady Min's family.. I hope they are not involve here..that would be troublesome..

Kiara

January 15, 2016 at 6:00 AM

@shirayukihime

The Min clan survived all the way to the end of Joseon. If Nameless is defeated here, they will rise again. I'm afraid the Min clan may continue that legacy through their queens.

shirayukihime

January 17, 2016 at 7:24 AM

@kiara.i have read that min clan is one of the most powerful clan in goryeo-choson transition but they declined after the purging of the queen's brothers by king taejong...
so what do you mean if the min clan is involve here, what do you mean they will continue their legacy through their queens?

Kiara

January 17, 2016 at 5:21 PM

Bang-won weakened them during his rule but they were not destroyed. Their power grew with every queen they provided all the way to the last queen of Joseon.

12 earthna

January 13, 2016 at 10:33 PM

My heart broke the moment Jung Do Jeon said that the king is only a flower. Damn. The Tree feels hit me so hard I needed time to get back up. The scene was well made with Yoo Ah In's acting and the other dragons' dreams resounding in the background.

I knew I would never be ready to see Po Eun die but I guess he needs to. I'm so ready for Bang Won to go berserk. Go, kill those who will block your way! Ugh. This drama making me go psycho mode. I need more!!

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CaroleMcDonnell

January 14, 2016 at 3:19 AM

Yes, so many good well-intentioned people are now gonna be removed. I like Po Eun. Heck, I even like General Choi Young. I really have to see Trees with Deep Roots. Yep I'm one of those who has not yet had the pleasure.

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crazyahjummafan

January 14, 2016 at 6:39 PM

I watched Tree because of this drama. It's good, but I love Six Dragons more, partly because it has better looking actors! Hee! (Soong Joong-ki only appeared for a few eps in Tree)

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earthna

January 14, 2016 at 10:23 PM

It might be better to watch it after Dragons so that you won't lose the momentum. Although watching it now will give you a new perspective towards Dragons. I actually watched it again while waiting for Dragons episodes. Directing was good in Tree and Moo Hyul in Tree is just too adorable.

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nomad

January 14, 2016 at 11:15 AM

Yes, that was a really cold way to say it. Especially after all the hell that LSG has had to go through along with his family.

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aumzyt

January 14, 2016 at 1:26 PM

thought it was only me who go psyco mode! hahaha
Yeah ! let's order Moo Hyul and Yong Kyu kill everyone!
I want to see more blood.........

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earthna

January 14, 2016 at 10:20 PM

Weirdly enough, I only want Bang Won to kill them. Baby Moo Hyul must not. ><

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Kiara

January 15, 2016 at 5:40 AM

Did you catch Yong Kyu dream? He wants to be remembered in history so I'm sure now that they will follow the history with him and Poeun.

His dream will come true, although he was a servant/bodyguard.

The dream scene was the saddest part of this drama so far for me. Their dreams was the foretelling of their individual future. Their happy time together will eventually come to an end.

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earthna

January 15, 2016 at 2:43 PM

Yes! I realized it at that moment too. I can see netizens complaining if they don't go with history on that one anyway.

I knowwwwww. Bang Woo Hyung is not there too so we probably won't see him much from here on out since he's strongly against the whole Joseon idea.

Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 3:49 PM

I always cry when Poeun is killed because he died in such a brutal way.Joseon wouldn't have been created with Poeun around. Sambong wouldn't have been able to convinced him even after spilling the whole plan about a government that is going to be run by talented scholars and ministers like himself. His loyalty was with his king and country.

If we look at it from Bang-won's point of view, Poeun was trying to kill his father in his attempt to save Goryeo. Poeun basically begged the king to get rid of Lee Seong-gye and his faction.

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Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 3:52 PM

Removing him saved his father's life and finally moved the revolution forward.

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earthna

January 14, 2016 at 10:20 PM

Yeah. I'm finally okay with Po Eun dying. I'm ready.

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Matala

January 15, 2016 at 4:13 AM

Well said!! At the minute our BW suspected him , I new it...

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Kiara

January 15, 2016 at 6:14 AM

It's still very sad because Poeun was trying to protect his country even if he had to turn in his friends (Lee Seong-gye, Sambong) to prevent the revolution.

From his point of view they were the traitors. He had to make a choice between loyalty to his friends or his country so he chose Goryeo.

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13 Shaista

January 13, 2016 at 10:34 PM

Finally another real great episode. Lee Bang Won's expressions that changed in split seconds on the last scene truly sent chills down my spine! Yoo Ah In is really good. Bring it on, Dark Side!

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Matala

January 15, 2016 at 4:14 AM

Lol

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14 Lisa Purba

January 13, 2016 at 10:44 PM

It's been so long since Bang-won has been motivated by a genuine ethical crisis that he doesn't actually seem to appreciate that the entire reason everyone has been working so hard to overthrow Goryeo is because of its inherently corrupt political system. For him, the only relevant question at stake is fairness. And after all the work Bang-won has gone through, he obviously thinks he has been treated unfairly. <----- sums up my feeling about him.

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15 redfox

January 13, 2016 at 10:54 PM

so much yelling this episode. Include a therapist in the reform plans, please.

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16 Kiara

January 13, 2016 at 11:00 PM

I knew they were setting Bang-won up to be the clear hero but didn't expect it to be this early. I thought it would happen after Joseon's establishment. Everything that he is going to do from here on will be justified as expected. His claimed that Sambong did nothing and he was the one that built Joseon, his Joseon starts here.

Interesting to know how Milbon was formed. I didn't think Sambong was a part of it while he was alive. I always thought that it was his followers and supporters who created Milbon after he was killed.

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nara

January 14, 2016 at 11:05 AM

hero as in protagonist or hero as in saving the world?
i think i missed something or is it from your own knowledge of history?

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Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 12:11 PM

The drama's hero :).

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17 little-muffin

January 13, 2016 at 11:18 PM

As good as the story is, is it bad to say that I'm not very interested in watching scenes of Bang-won?

Or maybe it's just me and my biased love towards Bang-ji and Moo-hyul. I just want these two to be on the screen all the time haha. But I guess we do need the story to proceed.

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Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 5:33 PM

I have a biased love for our two dragon bodyguards. Rinse and repeat eps 25 and I'll be fine with it lol.

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18 witwit

January 13, 2016 at 11:39 PM

jdj's plan is simply stupid. why don't they just dissolve the monarchy and focus the power on dodang with the system of checks and balance he has designed?

they already know that their monarchy has a history of being abusive without ways of being checked.

he knows that the lee family has brilliant members so why does he want them weakened when they can be useful.

if the idea is to slowly transition into the eventual dissolution of the monarchy, he should have also thought of slow letting the lee family about his plans instead of plotting behind their backs.

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shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 12:03 AM

i agree ..that's why it would be better f he dissolve the monarchy..and also dissolve the caste system..but didn't..when he create Joseon, there's also a caste system... and also what's the point of creating another monarch if they will just only end up being a puppet... ? it would only repeat what happen during the puppet regime in goryeo dynasty... It started during the military regime of choe clan, they installed puppet kings, then replaced by a puppet regime of yuan dynasty and then replace by the puppet regime during the later years of goryeo dynasty after king gongmin died...JDJ is repeating the same thing again...Just admit that he wanted to rule but doesn't have the power to rule... i feel bad for BW for being used

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beoseukeo

January 14, 2016 at 4:48 AM

Problem is that JDJ knows that the monarchy is well rooted in the tradition, so he can't just remove it. He doesn't want one man having all the power, but he can't remove the king either, so he's weakening the king. I'm not agreeing with him, just sharing what I think of his POV, which seems quite astute.

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19 x_

January 13, 2016 at 11:42 PM

I'm probably being impatient but I really want to see more scenes between Bang Won and his wife. They introduced her as such an interesting character, being like minded as Bang Won, yet all we see of her is relaying small time information. I understand she isn't as big of a character, but with 20 episodes or so left I'd like to see that character they introduced a bit more than what we see of her now.

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shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 12:06 AM

for now, would it be better if she is hidden?? she will be the trump card of BW..I heard she is one of the most politically influential queens..she helped BW during the first strife and the second strife...and he respected her as his political partner...don't worry they will come to that..

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Commentcomment

January 14, 2016 at 12:18 AM

Her scenes might be small, be in the last few episode, she gave small but important advices to bangwon, in this episode, she told him "what if, your father and sambong is wrong.. if sometime they are wrong you should be ready yourself" or something along those lines.. in an earlier episode she told him that he should also have people under him or something like that.. i think boonyi character is holding down her scenes and interaction with bangwon.. she might have more scenes since the dragons are on verge of splitting.. she and haryun would most likely be his advisors.. moohyul would be his body guard, the sibling would follow jdj and so as yeonhee.. on history lsg is on jdj's side

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CaroleMcDonnell

January 14, 2016 at 12:18 AM

We've seen little glimpses of her cut-throatness. Her reaction to the coronation of Prince Gong Jang was pretty telling. She is as power-hungry as he is, but apparently without the idealistic dream of democracy and justice. So far we haven't heard her plead for the people.

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shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 1:00 AM

nope. actually, installing king gongyang is pretty dangerous for them,,..since now JMJ knows JDJ motives.. In the JDJ drama... someone provided a recap about the history , it said that after king gongyang became a king, JMJ started to plot with King Gongyang against LSG factions.. they exiled JDJ factions. and then LSG fell in the horse in 1392 ,so JMJ uses this chance to kill LSg but BW killed JMJ ..Then after that JDJ's factions came back to the government and control the politics..and they enthroned LSg and executed King Gongyang..
It's really dangerous, as someone as JMJ he can persuaded the king to kill the LSG factions..so Lady Min knows the politics inside in and out...she knows what will happen next... for example, dissolution of private armies and confiscate of weapons ordered by JDJ, Lady MIn already had he idea that JDJ use this chance to kill BW and his brothers

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Commentcomment

January 14, 2016 at 1:56 AM

When she was introduced, she is shown predicting what is going to happen in the government politics back then, these days(the last few episodes) she is with her father and haryun, they seem to be trying to guess what is happening or going to happen with the jdjvs jmj plus nameless issue. Her scenes are few but we can see her advices to bangwon are really relevant. She told bangwon he should have his own people under him, then he met haryun in his father in law's house, she also asked him "what if your father and sambong is wrong, what are you going to do?" "You have to be ready and do something if ever they are wrong" or something along those lines.. seems like her scenes in the drama is being held because of boonyi, but since the dragons are on the verge of being split seems like she would have more since and her and haryun will be bangwons advisors, because the siblings will most likely be on jdj's side

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CaroleMcDonnell

January 14, 2016 at 3:15 AM

Again, knowing the political world does not mean she is not willing to cut a few throats to be powerful. When she had LBW kill his brothers because he was not made the heir, those murders weren't personally necessary. The brothers could have been good kings as well. She just didn't want them to be kings. The woman felt she and her husband were entitled to the throne. Entitlement is not political expediency.

shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 4:02 AM

@carolle. we really don't know if they become good kings. BW is a good choice to be a king.his brothers will just end up puppets of the prime ministers.seriously JDJ is crazy. he chooses the inexperience kid to run the country,it's obvious he will end up a puppet. look, what happen to the last three kings of goryeo, they were all puppets of the ministers...a king with no power is useless. I have watched lots of korean dramas,most of them sageuk,after that i search them up in the internet..i review the kings from goryeo, joseon and ming dynasty..I prefer a king like King Taejong rather than a puppet kings..Most of the kings like taejong make the country prospered and peaceful and were continued during his descendants' reign. I noticed that during the late years of goryeo and joseon, the kings are reduced into a figurehead. they were all puppets. and also the reason of the fall of silla kingdom was because of that..nobles gain control in the court while kings become a mere tool for them so this resulted to civil war and destruction.

CaroleMcDonnell

January 14, 2016 at 3:06 AM

That's all well and good re: the future queen, but history also tells is the one who made LBW kill his brothers. So whether she is right or wrong re JDJ, she is power-hungry.

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Commentcomment

January 14, 2016 at 3:40 AM

I was talking about her in the drama and her relevance to the stuff that's happening.. anyways, she was introduce before the drama started as bangwon's woman who he doesnt love, but she is smart and very ambitious, her first scenes in the drama kinda gave the viewers that kind of mpression.. her words seem to have a great effect on bangwon. She is a woman who knows politics, and participates in it. From what i heard, jdj and lsg's wife were the first ones who tried to kill bangwon, whether this is true or not, during those decades whether in korea or any other countries, killing a rival on the position is kinda a norm and not seem as just pure evil, because its "a kill them first before they kill you" logic.. it still happens up to this day, whether it is to literally kill your enemy or digging every dirt you find to kill their reputation.. most people admire her as a smart queen.

CaroleMcDonnell

January 14, 2016 at 9:42 AM

I hear what you're saying. But the norm --of murdering family members-- was never really "accepted." And later, LBW's kids strongly disapproved of his actions of murdering their uncles.

LSG's wife made LSG choose LBW's brothers as king. We don't know if the brothers would have been good or bad. But LBW's wife thought it was best to kill the brothers. True, maybe she knew the brothers might do a preemptive strike against LBW. But, as you say, she was ambitious and so far she shows no love for the common people or the ideals of the revolution. She is entitled. She likes power and status.

But if we are in dramaland, we are shown from the beginning that this future queen's major skills are politics and ambition. One can be politically-savvy or politically-active and yet not be overly-ambitious for one's own glory. Choi Young and Po Eun seem to be like that. Maybe JDJ was like that, but I'm not sure.

I think right now in the drama is where the extremely personal becomes the political; this is where LBW says "Power must be in my hand at all cost because I want to save the people...and if there is a royal family, that family must be our family."

There could be one of two things that're freaking him out:
Not usurping the throne, and not having power.

The choices are:
LSW becomes king and has no power.

LSW does not become king but his noble band of revolutionaries change laws, and the way the ministers rule for the better, regardless of who is in power.

Yong Jang becomes king and the country's laws etc are changed for the better (whereby LSG gets no glory and LBW gets no glory or power.)

LSW becomes king and has all power (whereby everyone in LSW's family has supreme power.)

LBW's brothers want Yong Jang to be king but so far they do not want to have anything to do with becoming a dynasty. But LBW's wife wants it and will support him. And so far, we don't see if she has any love for the revolutionary ideas.

nomad

January 14, 2016 at 12:29 PM

who's jmj?

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Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 4:12 PM

Jung Mong-ju.

Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 4:12 PM

Lady Min is usually my favorite character when it comes to this era.

I cheered for her when she was fighting to support Bang-won.
Annoyed with her for being overly ambitious.
I felt bad for her when he didn't acknowledge her contribution.
I sympathized with her when she became jealous of her husband's many women.
I cried with her when he killed her 4 brothers who also helped him sit on the throne.
Cried with her when her father died upon hearing of his sons' exile.
ETc etc etc.

She went through a lot of heart ache but she managed to raised Sejong to become the best king Joseon has ever had.
Rock on Lady Min!

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Vinny

January 16, 2016 at 2:31 AM

I love how complicated Bang Won and Lady Min relationship was. They're both ambitious and intelligent and seem to work together to aim the same goal. Sounds like a perfect couple to begin with but the marriage itself is a trouble because BW noticed her ambition later, he killed her brothers and took many concubines that made his wife jealous. But before that, they made 11 children together lol...from team work to enemy...I just wish there will be a film or drama focus on their dynamic relationship only.

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Kiara

January 16, 2016 at 7:18 AM

Right, they were so much alike so I'm not surprise that they weren't getting along at some point. King Sejong the Great was the product of two intelligent and ambitious parents.

I do sympathize with her because she is a woman and I would feel the same way if I was in her shoes but when I see things from Bang-won's point of view I kind of understand why he did what he did to a point.

He killed many people to get to the throne so he had to sleep with his eyes open. Always anxious and trusting no one. Vulnerable to counter attack, revenge etc.

I'd watch the heck out of it if they make a drama based on their relationship.

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shirayukihime

January 17, 2016 at 7:32 AM

he was lucky cause he was not poison by his wife despite of killing her brothers.. wonder what's behind of having 11 children,that's a lot,.... i feel bad for cause she married bw for the prosperity of her clan but it was a loss after killing her brothers. well, sedo politics is really dangerous, that's the another reason of the decline of goryeo and later joseon dynasty.. and in the end,king taejong asked to be buried together with his wife.. she's his only queen...

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20 CaroleMcDonnell

January 14, 2016 at 12:14 AM

After all Bang Won has seen, can he really trust Joseon ministers? It seems to me, life in Goryeo is a mess because the king's power is too much in check by the powerful ministers. No matter how many checks and balances exist, the rich would always have power. Nowadays we in the USA have a congress, an executive branch, and a judicial branch. The typical citizen has much monetary freedom and political power. But still the rich and the powerful own our government and the 1% still exists. Not sure if there was any Asian society at the time that was like Jeong De Jeon's dreams so am not sure it would've worked, but it seems as if a strong absolute monarch and honorable king would be needed to make the dream work.

Thanks for the recap.

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Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 4:32 PM

Goryeo's corrupted ministers were mostly rich noble landowners and retired military heroes like Lee In Gyeom.

The era of the Sadaebu scholars started with Mogeun (Lee Saek), Poeun (Jung Mong-ju), Sambong (Jung Do-jeon), Yang Chon (Gwon Geun), Wujae (Jo Joon) etc. They are part of Dodang but they are usually the ones trying to reform this rotten government.

Bang-won was a Confucian scholar himself who studied under Poeun, Mogeun etc. He has got to know the difference.

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21 nanachan

January 14, 2016 at 12:16 AM

Stand aplous for the show! Its deliver so smooth that nobody can against, and make us understand deeply about sambong and bang won idealism. they both had bad and good side just like everyone. no one can blame one or them both to geting craked. its fictional, but fit in history!

The preview of next episode make me wait in impatience. Is bang won will be nameless new sword? i mean, really? sooo curious about how this "sword" will work. Is next week always that long? lol

in drama land we told someone is better warrior than other in verbal. but not in this show. no word need to explain that Cheok Sa-kwang is better than bang ji. i'm not even mention about the "catching cup move" She is so fast, effective, and deadly.

well directing and choreographing. the production team is all daebak!

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Commentcomment

January 14, 2016 at 12:21 AM

Cheok sagwang is awesome, her scenes left my stunned.. she seriously fast., he killed baek geunsoo before he could even pull his sword, and killed bangji's master's student in the blink of an eye.. she damningly fast.. i want to see how they would use her in the drama, even though we know how things would work for the side shes on based on history

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Kiara

January 16, 2016 at 9:20 AM

"Is bang won will be nameless new sword?"

I'm still trying to figure out what it means but it sounds exciting.

Will they use him or he will use them? I think he will be the one to expose them and what they are after.

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nanachan

January 17, 2016 at 3:15 AM

That's the point Kiara! is the sword will stab their enemy, or they own back right after they helped him kill all his enemy? Ha!

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Kiara

January 18, 2016 at 8:13 AM

Double edge, I can see that :).

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22 Sowhat

January 14, 2016 at 1:00 AM

I agree with you guys but i also sympathize with JDJ. When u're planning something big as a new nation, you can't just disclose all of ur thoughts at once and to everyone. I am sorry but you will become manipulative... JDJ is only one of these great leaders out there who initiated change.

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shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 1:26 AM

i think it should be really disclose since everyone will be part of a plan..loyalty and trust is important here...JDJ's did is similar to what Moo Hyul's said in ep. 20 something about going to the battlefield without knowing anything.they think they are protecting the country from war but it's not: It's conquering of liadong peninsula which would result to a dangerous situation..they think they are doing the same thing but the other has the hidden agenda..BW thought making his father a king and change the country but it's different from JDJ. he's planning to make LSG a puppet king while all the power holds by JDJ.that's why it said in the history that LSG trusted JDJ,that's why JDJ became the most powerful in the court during his reign....In JDJ drama poster, JDJ is sitting whle LSG is standng, it shows that JDJ holds the real power..

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Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 4:42 PM

In history, the revolution plan was between Sambong and Lee Seong-gye. He didn't have to explain squad to anyone but Lee Seong-gye. Bang-won was not involved in it. He was still young. The rest of these young dragons are fictional and obviously were not part of it either. Let's not confused history with the drama.

His plan was not to hold the power for himself. But to create a government run by talented and qualified ministers.

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23 nowwhat

January 14, 2016 at 1:04 AM

I agree with you guys but i also sympathize with JDJ. When u're planning something big as a new nation, you can't just disclose all of ur thoughts at once and to everyone. I am sorry but you will become manipulative. JDJ is only one of these great leaders out there who initiated change...

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24 Shinubi Wang

January 14, 2016 at 2:35 AM

Where is the romance and women politics? Are we going to be left high and dry?

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I Will Goryeo You

January 14, 2016 at 3:06 AM

The writers are not that good in romance department. I recall TWDR had not much romance compare to SFD.

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PeepsLeAwesomePotato

January 14, 2016 at 7:02 AM

What do you mean high and dry? I'm already soaking in perspiration watching then try to set up a new country from my high and dry spot in 2016.

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drag_on

January 15, 2016 at 4:35 AM

LMAO.
I was waiting someone to comment on this.

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25 I Will Goryeo You

January 14, 2016 at 3:05 AM

This episode set new high records in ratings. I'm sure most viewers had been waiting for this moment. It's about time for Bangwon to make a move since there are only 20 episodes left. And boy, I'm amazed!

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Commentcomment

January 14, 2016 at 3:42 AM

He has been making his moves all this time, though.. but if you are talking about jdj vs bangwon.. yeah, next week's episode seems to be the start of it

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26 mango

January 14, 2016 at 5:06 AM

i just have to comment on the beautiful imagery in this drama.

last episode it was there when lee seong gye was kneeling to receive the gift from the king. when the wine was sitting in the cup in front of him the camera panned to show a top view and it looks exactly like how criminals receive poison to die. and it was apt since the "gift" he was receiving was an assassin. it also made the next scene more powerful when he received the wine cup with respect, then poured out it's contents like he was rejecting death.

the imagery is here in this episode as well after king gongyang got recognized in court and jung mongjoo and jung dojeon walked out of the court together with smiles then stopped and turned their backs on each other and headed in opposite ways. it's such beautiful symbology for how the two were the best of friends since young but now is where they part ways in terms of ideology.

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27 nara

January 14, 2016 at 5:15 AM

thanx head for me i dont even want to see it from the eyes of the 14th century even if i understand i dont agree
i do not understand the "puppet" king issue
a king is just a person therefore depending on his nature upbringing he makes choices so the future of his citizens in a matter of luck
and more than anything what is different in JDJ system is the change of ministers
if we now know anything is that stagnant governing is the worst of all
thats why even extremely good leaders can only be chosen limited times
and countries that change from left to right from time to have more self aware citizens - this is all subjects that are learned in your citizen calss in school
im really surprised that there are ppl today who can think that monarchy no matter at what point in time was good in theory because it only depend on luck

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28 nara

January 14, 2016 at 5:23 AM

about BW more than anything to me this last scene proved to me that at least in the drama BW is all about the power and BY and the rest are just excuses -even if he himself doesnt realize
for me his alarm of what he heard means he was so certain he would become king - at this point the only one is his father and eldest brother and after that it would have been his eldest brother son being so alarmed means he know for sure that this power theyre talking about is his
and here is the birth of a tyrant - not seeing his family ideals or anything but his own power taken away from him
and just as Freud said ppl need to justify give reason to their decision and BW is in BY and Co.
not that im not thrilled to see the new BW really looking forward to it
but what of my BY what will happen to her will she realize and see the worm?

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sam

January 14, 2016 at 6:37 AM

who wouldn't want power . lee seong gye want power even jeong do jong wanted power , if not how come in his plan only the prime minister will have most power ,what make jeong do jeong plan thinks that the ministers he plan to give power too won't be like the minister from the previous dynasty . No one wants to be a puppet. Right now bang won isn't even thinking about being king , like he mentioned to bonyi all he want is to participate in politic so he can have power to establish the justice he wants.

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nara

January 14, 2016 at 6:49 AM

a lot of pldont want power - just look in your work office or where you work
ppl would not want to take responsibility and therefore leadership
there are only specific ppl who like power and control if not there wouldnt be any ppl left to invent the iternet
the product of a king was developed over time and not created instantly
first a leader would b chosen bc of his intelligence and of course willingness to lead
afterwards to be accepted and taken for granted the element of myth was added therefore becoming a king
which we hav in the drama
but even now royalty considered better than other just bc of their blood
i wonder if english citizen can be infused with royal blood by donation
if there are any engish here please help clarify
the myth surrounding royalty still exist even if we know they are just ordinary ppl like us

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Matala

January 15, 2016 at 4:57 AM

Yes, I agree. I think that BW is just shocked right now . He is so actif sincère the beginning. He is fighting for justice. Of course he Wants power as every scholar with ideas and ambition... Of course , I admit that as everyone he has a dark side but who doesn't? And remenber When he told BONG YI that if in the future he changes , she has to told him. So he is a good Guy . There is no way he ´ll become a tyrant.

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crazyahjummafan

January 16, 2016 at 6:51 AM

@sam
You've so correctly pointed out that at this point in the drama, BW was not thinking about being king. All he wants is to be able to participate in politics and use his marvellous mind to make things better for the people, so that he can see them smile.

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nanachan

January 14, 2016 at 2:06 PM

Nara, you're going to far. this episode not talking abaut Bang won's worm and power yet. you seem have good understanding about psykologi, but you'r biased as JDJ person make you even forget about human feeling when they or us feel betrayed.

tell me, if bangwon isn't all about power, what the right reaction he supposed to have when he got betrayed by his trusted teacher and leader?

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nanachan

January 14, 2016 at 2:27 PM

*psycology

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nara

January 14, 2016 at 3:33 PM

and i am bias as i should be
the worship of kings in the 21 century is illogical and redundant
so of course i dont think kings have any merits
and i hope most ppl think that there should never again be a traditional ruling of a king as well as an absolute ruler
and i base my reason on countries that still have royalty and choose not to treat them as anything more than symbols

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crazyahjummafan

January 16, 2016 at 7:05 AM

I think you've missed the point. We are not discussing about whether kingship is good or bad. We are discussing about how JDJ deliberately left out details of his new Joseon to people who have given their all to help him achieve his dream.

JDJ's idea of having checks and balances to a monarch's power may be good, but this should be communicated to those helping him. If he doesn't, then he's manipulating and deceiving them.

Of all the people helping him, surely, he is not so blind as to not know that BW has ambition and passion. To make a rule that the royal family cannot participate in politics is going too far. Surely, he cannot expect BW to calmly and willingly accept this. This is a man with brilliant mind and one who has helped him in numerous times when things weren't going his way. Initially, JDJ was the master-minded a lot of the schemes, but once, BW came on board, and especially recently, he contributed much to the progression of JDJ's dream. Without BW's ingenious schemes, I doubt if JDJ can get this far.

nara

January 14, 2016 at 3:24 PM

that is the point he is not betrayed it is his father

at this point in the story LBW has NO hope of becoming a king he has 2 eldest brothers that would take the throne before him and their son after them

LBW had NO way of getting the throne in a traditional way
and yet all he could think of at that moment that HIS power is taken away and how he will achieve his dream

this is exactly the turning point from just aiding his father to become a king without thinking of his future to the moment he decides that no matter what he will become a king (at least in the drama since he has no part in the history now except as LSG son)

by making LBW ignore and forget the hierarchy ruling the writers wanted to make a point of him "proclaiming" himself as king if the writers didnt they would have shown him thinking of his father and not his own dream and how to achieve it
which from now on will be just an excuse - psychology

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nanachan

January 14, 2016 at 5:02 PM

ones again im talking about this episode only. if you make conclusion about how bad bangwon hunger of power only by seen him shocking and staggering when heard the end of their struggle would be, you're extremley jenius. you should be an advisor of this world leader.

And bang won has the right to feel betrayed, not just for his father.

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nara

January 19, 2016 at 2:05 PM

once again im analyzing the last written words of the script

once again im treating this script as i treat any literary and written text - like you do when you have a literary test

you have to base your conclusion on the text what it says and what it hides

why everyone here are not familiar with analyzing a literary text

Anony

July 3, 2017 at 9:14 AM

A fear of being powerless isn't the same as being power-hungry. You can watch someone torture your friends by making them burn books or commit suicide, and curse your inability to do anything about it -- that's not being power-hungry or ambitious, that's being empathetic and human. I think you're a little too influenced by your own biases against the actual historical figure, rather than the character the writer's are writing.

BangWon's greatest fear has always been a fear of feeling helpless/powerless again, and that's a fear that stems from both his established good heart and his experiences as a child. He may have no qualms with killing people to achieve his goals, but throughout the drama, his goals have always been "to help the people" -- both as a child and as an adult. The way he felt when he couldn't rescue the mothers forced to feed pigs in Lee In Gyeom's house; when he couldn't help his beggar friends; when he watched his scholar friends persecuted for studying Confucianism; when he was persecuted himself; when Hong In Bong alienated him from having any friends in the SungKyunwan -- he's intimately acquainted with helplessness, and he's actively working to never feel that way again. As a character, he's admirable for the way he constantly and unapologetically tries to claim his agency and overcome the victimization others try to enforce on him (a trait we usually laud in main characters). Who knows what he was like as a real-life historical person. But as a character, he's most definitely kind-hearted. Yes, some of his methods (killing people. for instance.) aren't nearly as admirable, but it's been established from the beginning that he's never wanted power for power's sake (the definition of being power-hungry) -- he wants power in order to change the world for the better. There's a reason he's admired JDJ ever since that incident at the gate, why he refused to go to General Jo's banquet and instead went to comfort BoonYi's people, why we constantly see him choosing to work with the people on the street over the nobles surrounding him -- because BW the character is an empathetic, kind man who wants to make the world a better place. He just believes the end goal justifies the means, and that's what makes him dangerous. Not because he's power-hungry -- but because he refuses to be powerless.

Two different things.
Just saying. :)

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I Will Goryeo You

January 15, 2016 at 6:25 AM

I don't think he was at the point that he was certain that he would be a king yet. He didn't think about this yet. He was shocked because JDJ said the king would only become the flower. I was shocked too even though I have no desire to be the king.

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29 sam

January 14, 2016 at 6:30 AM

bang won mentioned in the beginning that he believe in justice and can't stand injustice to establish justice you need power , That's goes hand to hand . He want to do it through politic , he trusted in jeong do jong , thats why he hasn't even acted against jung mong joo. He just told everyone his dream , but realize that through sambong plan he may never achieve his dream. No one wants to be a puppet .

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nara

January 14, 2016 at 6:37 AM

thats very nice - but actions speak louder than words
and if he only sees himself in power only believe he can do it
we see a tyrant and not an idealist well what we consider idealist

LBW in that moment of "losing" power didnt think about his father or brother to him he is the only option
as if he is a messiah of some sort and only he can do it
again this is the characteristic of a tyrant
even mao tse tung was just an idealist at the beginning

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I Will Goryeo You

January 15, 2016 at 6:28 AM

How do you know that at the moment he didn't think of his father and only himself? For the whole 30 episodes all he wanted and wished was his father getting the throne by the help of Sambong. This character has more layers than just one single minded one, thus it's too quick to say that he has suddenly turned to a tyrant.

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crazyahjummafan

January 16, 2016 at 7:12 AM

I agree with you Laura. To say that BW was a tyrant from hearing about JDJ's plans is jumping the gun. It may have been the start...the worm may have started to feed on him and cause him to do what he did later when he became king. But there is no evidence to say that he sees himself as" a messiah of some sort and only he can do it" and no evidence of him becoming a tyrant.

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nara

January 19, 2016 at 1:56 PM

the evidence is in the script - that is exactly what im saying
and the evidence for him being a tyrant is in the definition of a tyrant that he fit to - dictionary wise

the writers chose what words to give to our hero and decide what he is thinking

if he first words we hear after LBW discovers JDJ real plan are about himself it means he is afraid of losing his own power and he thinks that only he can make those "dreams" come true
ABC in literary text analyzing

i cant believe that im the only one after high school here - im sure all of you had to analyze a writing bf

you cant decide based on belief alone what the writers meant im sorry that you dont like it but it was what the writers chose to say

and it came as a surprise to me too

30 wonhwa

January 14, 2016 at 6:36 AM

I don't think that the writers of the show are wanting viewers to simply cheer for Bang-won in his quest to take down all who seek to limit his power (or at least I hope not). Based on what we've seen of his personality so far, I think JDJ is quite rational in wanting to limit the role of any single individual to wield absolute control. While TWDR did present the constitutional monarchy crowd as the villains, I get the sense that this show is going to look a bit more broadly at the advantages and disadvantages of different political systems. Because giving a king more power is great if that king is Sejong, but not so ideal if the king is violent, stupid, or greedy (or has sociopathic tendencies like a certain protagonist in this show).

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earthna

January 14, 2016 at 9:59 AM

With persuasion, I think it would work. It's Jung Dojeon we're talking about. But they set it up with Bangwon feeling so hopeful, only for his dreams to be crushed through something that he saw as betrayal.

Also, King Sejong was great in Tree but I think he wouldn't be able to do all that he did if his father didn't set all the foundations for him to begin with.

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wonhwa

January 14, 2016 at 2:24 PM

They've also set up a great deal of ambiguity about exactly what Bang-won is "hoping" for. He talks about fighting injustice and making people smile, but as Ha Ryun points out, he's also very interested in personal power. Those two things don't have to be incompatible, but they certainly can be, especially if achieving personal power involves killing off all rivals. The historical Taejong accomplished a lot, but the way he did it wasn't pretty. I hope the show will really dive into the ends vs. means debate without watering down either Taejong's achievements or the often alarming tactics he used to reach them. Right now, I can't say that I sympathize too much with Bang-won's angst at the idea that all of this elaborate plan might not be about handing him ultimate authority.

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shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 5:44 PM

seriously, let's just say he did a lot for the country, his people loved him, and the country prospered.. I heard that the early years of dynasty was relatively free of corruption and it became corrupt after the Imjin war, the king become weak.. King taejong didn't did what he had done then the country would have not experience years of prosperity and peace.. what he did it's not rare.. At the same time in Ming Dynasty, The third emperor did what BW did, he usurped the throne and killed the second emperor. but he was great king to his people.. historians considered his reign most prosperous during the ming dynasty history..It's ancient guys, there's no moral code there.. the only way to survive is kill them bfore they got you first.. he killed many people but he was loved by his people and people considered him as one of the best rulers in the korean history.. there's nothing wrong with what he had done.. don't compare the 21st century and the 14th century.. he's not the only one anyway that did something like that.. there were so many people, it's just that there were not recorded in history.. As long as King Taejong did that to his people and ruled effectively, then there's no problem..

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crazyahjummafan

January 16, 2016 at 7:17 AM

@shirayukihime
"don’t compare the 21st century and the 14th century.. he’s not the only one anyway that did something like that.. there were so many people, it’s just that there were not recorded in history.. "

Good point. We cannot impose our 21st century ideals and values to the 14th century. In many countries, people operated on different moral codes based on the situation of their times.

earthna

January 14, 2016 at 10:26 PM

Yes. I want to see that in the drama too. Having his idealistic side and the bad side mashed into one person is what makes Bang Won in this drama interesting. I'm also hoping for them to go into darker territories from here on.

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Adal

January 14, 2016 at 3:08 PM

@earthna

Very true. King Sejong the Great, could only be that great because his father had paved the way for him by his actions. Like Bang won or hate him, the good that he did as an absolute monarch empowered his son and heir allowing him to make the inventions and modifications he did, including the Korean alphabet.

If JDJ had his way, many of those innovations would have never seen the light of day, the king would have never had the power to implement those changes (just imagine arguing with the ministers whenever he had to make a scientific change) and Korea would still be stuck using simplified Chinese characters.

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shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 5:53 PM

I agree, TWDR is just based in fiction except the creation of hangul. In his political enemies POV he's ruthless but great king to his people.. Actually, in history king taejong was loved by his children..esp.King Sejong.. King sejong even cried and not eat for days after his father died.. he won't leave by his side.. during his retirement, King Sejong built him a residence palace to live.. Among the tombs of Joseon dynasty, King taejong tomb is the most biggest and amazing.. King Sejong built it for his father..
I love King taejong's achievements and one of it is the palace he built.. i haven't seen it but it was very beautiful.. i have read that it influence the korean architecture.. The palace was called "The Palace of Prospering Virtue".
What he did is cruel but I have read another history about the kings in another dynasty, it's not rare to do something like that..Everything he did is justified and as long as the country prospered,then there's no problem.. He was loved by his people so there's no problem..

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31 Kdrama Addict

January 14, 2016 at 9:28 AM

I truly need some information in history: Did Taejong realize (some of) his people's dreams during his reign? Could anyone please provide me with some examples? Especially, those which is based on his own idea, not JDJ's?

If LBW hadn't kill JDJ, Lee Bang Seok (LBW's half brother) had become a king just as JDJ wanted and JDJ had been a man with real power for a little longer, would have it make a very different world? I mean: come on, the people didnt really care who was ruling, right?, as long as the ruler did some good/bad things to them. Let me know your point of view.

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earthna

January 14, 2016 at 10:03 AM

Hmmm. I was really curious about this so I'm thinking of reading on historical Lee Bang Won more. Well, I would say it would be completely different. First of all, if Bang Won didn't become King, King Sejong won't inherit the throne. No Hangul for Koreans. Maybe someone will eventually make their own letters but it won't be the same.

After watching Tree, I felt extremely grateful to King Sejong for creating Hangul. I can't imagine myself fangirling over idols and dramas while trying to learn Hanja. There's just no way.

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nara

January 14, 2016 at 10:10 AM

this is actually what i think
as a JDJ person i think it would have been better to put the 8th prince with JDJ and his followers
BUT we probably wouldnt have hangul
will never know

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Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 7:49 PM

I can't think of anything on Taejong or any Joseon king fulfilling people's dream. How would they know when they were separated by social status and the palace walls.
It's always about their own dreams and fulfilling their own.

The majority of the people were the commoners. They weren't allowed to get an education, they carried the burden of the country, paying heavy taxes, farming to improve the economy etc etc.

If I was a commoner I'd dream of being born a noble with the right to get an education, the right to be treated like a human being, have food to eat etc.

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32 Yeri

January 14, 2016 at 10:39 AM

I still did'nt watch the whole ep,so I just refered my guess to Heads recap!
I clearly understnd the root of BW's manslaughtering and I understnd him,feeling used and fooled!! I just want to ask question since I stop watching it in ep.27,'cause am spending my vacation in a country side and my conection is damn weak,**are they done with the Land reformation?or still investigating it? If the answer is NO,then I have no doubt about BY's loyalty for BW when everything get ruin!!BW is like BY in so many ways,especialy in seeking justice,she consider her mum as their enimy for being nameless follower!!correct me f am wrong"according to history that I read,BW is the one behind those land reform,BY as what we know,she is so eager to have thier own land and willing to kill someone ,Somehow, I guess she will do something to put BW in the throne.Lady Min and BY is a good combination!!hope to see them work as a team!tho,somewhere in my dreamLand I wish to think.that this is fictional not historical,so I can make BY as my queen and BW as my king(^_^)..
My english is realy so bad,am sorry for that!
Thanks heads for the recap:-)

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Mari

January 15, 2016 at 11:24 AM

No, they are still struggling with the land reformation investigating process because of Nameless organization. I'm also eager to see BY work together with Lady M. I think Lady M's involvement in BW's life hasn't been dug deeply.

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Commentcomment

January 16, 2016 at 1:12 AM

She has small scenes of relaying info to bangwon and giving one sentence advices/questions.. since the dragons are about to seperate, and boonyi would most likely side with jdj, im expecting her to have more screen time

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Kiara

January 18, 2016 at 6:30 AM

You are mistaken, it was Woojae's (Jo Joon) land reform. That is why Sambong seeked him out because he was the land expert at the time.

Bang-won had his own reform later after he discovered what's called "Hidden Land."
His father distributed land to his followers (merit subjects) but they were not paying taxes on it.

From episode 1 to now Bang-won was not involved. The writers are changing some of the history to fit their story and he is a very important part of it.

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shirayukihime

January 19, 2016 at 1:27 PM

i am so excited for the hidden land.. :) thanks...

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33 nnkio

January 14, 2016 at 10:56 AM

People build on people's work, jdj didn't form all the ideas with a miraculous brain , he made use of Mencius, Confucius and even Hong in bang. If banwon took the ideas of jdj and implemented it, it becomes his. You cant steal what don't belong to anyone. If bangwon is regarded as a thief, jdj is also.

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nara

January 14, 2016 at 11:16 AM

but the land reform and the governing system is his
while he was influenced by others he organized it in a certain way
what makes you credited for a new idea is if you take an idea and change it to make it your but if you leave it without changes the last person to do the changes is credited with the idea

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34 Kween Ramyeon

January 14, 2016 at 11:27 AM

I'm enjoying the ride of the dragons. It's been 30 episodes and I don't feel a lull yet. Also, it's a good feeling to feel such confidence in the writers - the way the narrative are woven, each aspect looping back on itself - it's very deft and assured.

Right, I'm holding on tight as from now on, it's all going to hell in a hand basket.

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35 ha ji won

January 14, 2016 at 12:07 PM

Pls is GSM and GTM noble?

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Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 4:53 PM

I'm going to try and explain it based on the drama because they are fictional characters.

If I remember correctly they were not nobles but they were talented swordsmen. Gil Tae Mi's was elevated to a noble status through In Gyeom's influence.

I'm not sure about his brother Gil Sun Mi. We are told he was a palace guard so he probably remained a commoner throughout his life.

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crazyahjummafan

January 16, 2016 at 7:22 AM

From what I recall, (from the conversations in the drama), the Gil brothers were poor. GTM rose to power like Kiara says through LIG.

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36 Midori

January 14, 2016 at 1:31 PM

I see this as an oligopoly more than constitutional monarchy in that the leaders of the government are not elected but chosen by another process.

I also view JDJ as a kingmaker like Warwick during the War of the Roses. He did try to control a young king and hold true power in his hands.

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shirayukihime

January 19, 2016 at 1:29 PM

so who is better in your point of view?

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37 shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 2:32 PM

When will Joseon establish?? i am so excited for the Joseon's hanbok.. especially the Queen's clothes.. I wanna know what it looks like Joseon hanboks for Queens in the early Joseon dynasty.... I don't like how the clothes in Great king Sejong drama, and the clothes in Goryeo dynasty.. I prefer the colorful hanboks in Josoen dynasty.. i am so excited for that//..

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Commentcomment

January 14, 2016 at 3:42 PM

Have you watched the royal tailor starring yoo yeonseok, park shinhye and go soo?? The dresses go soo makes are really pretty

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shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 6:05 PM

not yet.. thanks.. But I wanna see LM in hanbok for queens of Joseon dynasty..with the dragon embroidery...

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Commentcomment

January 15, 2016 at 3:21 AM

In the movie they were making pretty hanboks for the non royal and the queen, shinhye's role there was a queen, and it was very pretty, both the hanbok and the shinhye of course

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38 KompaktneHaare

January 14, 2016 at 3:17 PM

Never mind who's idealistic and who's not and who's idea of a kingdom is better...

All I know is that whenever Bang Won is on the planning team I'm on the edge of my seat and biting my nails.

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39 yukie

January 14, 2016 at 6:28 PM

I don't understand the leap of logic from BW feeling betrayed to BW power hungry.

Looking into BW character deeply, these are the most plausible explanation on why he felt betrayed.
- he has an ideals and dream that "justice" will win and corrupt and evil ppl will finally go down
- he believes LSG is one of the most eligible ppl to be king
- he think JDJ also believes LSG is worthy to be King (to rule-as proper king in their time)
- he whole heartedly thinks that he can continue contribute in building the country he believes in (let's not jump into conclusion that BW wants to be King YET!)

Based on what we have seen in the drama it is expected that BW feels betrayed!

He had just decided to trust JMJ and realized the true reason JDJ wanted JMJ so much. That's coz JDJ wants to reduce LEE families power despite working tgt and after all the risks and hard work that they done.

I don't see BW make e leap from betrayed to power hungry. He simply realized LM was right and that he shouldn't follow JDJ blindly.

Most ppl saw him as power hungry is biased by e information from history. Coz we know he will kill his brothers and be king. But e drama haven't bring us there yet.

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Adal

January 15, 2016 at 2:24 AM

Very true Yukie.

I agree with you on all points! It's way too early to say Bang won felt betrayed because he wanted to be king. That's leaping way too ahead into the future. He's angry and feels betrayed because after all the hard work the Lee family did, planning to give up their land and wealth; the numerous assassination attempts on their family, the turmoil created when their father was forced to disobey his king; all would be for naught as his father would end up being a puppet king with no influence on society or the country! And the worst of it all is, JDJ kept all this secret from the Lee family! He knows if he discloses his plans for the king, he would've never gotten support from the Lee family, so he's playing them. It makes my blood boil, just thinking about it!

Bang won at this time hoped for a political career, not necessarily to be king, but he did want the power and opportunity to influence policy and decision making for the country. That would all be denied to him if JDJ has his way, since according to JDJ's plan, all members of the royal family are to remain ineffective and refrain from politics. Like someone commented earlier, there are better candidates to be an ineffective puppet king than an army general hero with brilliant and ambitious sons.

I can't wait for Bang won to go beserk and kill them all. (Bloodthirsty of me, I know).

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shirayukihime

January 15, 2016 at 2:31 AM

agree..

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I Will Goryeo You

January 15, 2016 at 6:20 AM

JDJ made a mistake by not sharing information/not communicating his plan well and keeping them himself even to his young dragons. It's ironic because The Nameless upped their game and tailed on him because they use information as their weapon.

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crazyahjummafan

January 16, 2016 at 7:28 AM

@Adal

+10000000000

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Mari

January 15, 2016 at 11:26 AM

Very well said.

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crazyahjummafan

January 16, 2016 at 7:27 AM

I applaud your sound reasoning and apt comments, Yukie!!!
It is a leap in logic to the leap to say that BW feeling betrayed is BW being power hungry.

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40 shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 6:31 PM

I am so excited for BW's brother to appear. Lee Bang Gan....

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41 shirayukihime

January 14, 2016 at 6:43 PM

watching ep. 14 again, why do i feel that I don't wnt BW be married to LM.. I hope they follow the history..LM"s father was the one who decided to make BW his son in law... it was not BW who proposed.. sigh...

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42 sam

January 14, 2016 at 7:13 PM

this is not from me but someone from soompii which i believe hit all the right point
In my opinion the thing that shocked Bang won most was the intention of Jeong Do Jeon to acquire all power to himself and his colleagues and friends that make up Sadeabu and discard the Yi family after using them to found Joseon. The King will be a puppet king with no real power just like the kings during Yi in Gyeom and Jo Min Su and so on......

I do not think he conciously had thought of becoming king at any point until now, he might have aspired and dreamed of serving Joseon and its people using his father's power when he becomes king but he has not till now thought about seizing the position of King to himself.

Bang Won is not our typical White Washed Prince Charming Hero of Korean Drama, he is a multi-layered , realistic , hardcore Leader of men who believes in the bitterness of Justice to safeguard a Society where common man can dream and aspire.

In his reign he had organized a system where common people can tell the king directly their woes and difficulties. He cutout the greedy Bureaucracy that Jung do Jeon had faith in and instead relied on Hands on relationship between people and King.

For him there were only two entities , the king and his people.The King had to be the most powerful man in the kingdom and the welfare of the common people was his greatest responsiblity.In order to achieve that and fulfill that the King should not let any third part mediate between himself and his people.This was Lee Bang Won's firm belief.

No country in the World until now has ascended to the top without people like Yi Bang Won taking upon themselves to lead the nation and cutting the crap coming in between.

If Yi Bang Won had submitted to Jeong do Jeon and let the Royal family and the king become a pushover like the child Goryeo king , we would have seen the repeat of Goryeo where another Yi in Gyeom or another military dictator would have become proxy kings and enriched themselves with corruption.

For all his great intellect Jeong Do Jeon was blind to the character of Sadaebu scholars, just because he had a selfless Sadeabu Scholar friend like Jung Mong Ju, he couldnt even imagine what would happen to his designed system had scholars of nature of Yi in Gyeom become Prime ministers.Was Hong in Bang not a established Sadeabu Confician Scholar, look how despotic tyrant he turned out.

Jung Do Jeon needed to realize that the powerful Bureaucracy can be kept in check only by two entities the King or the Common People.Since there was no concept of Democracy then the only valid candidate would be the King.The King needed to be powerful enough to keep the Bureaucracy in check and lead the nation.

Morever people blame Bang won for killing Jung Do Jeon and his half brothers, but it was a situation of Kill or be Killed, Bang Won had come to know that Jung Do Jeon and his great Sadeabu scholars cum ministers were readying to eliminate him , he...

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dasa

January 14, 2016 at 7:27 PM

he striked first and eliminated them instead .Eliminating his half brothers was the only way because as long as they were alive , the Sadeabu will use their power as future kings and try to eliminate him.

Later on as King Taejong eliminated the relatives of his Queen and his Daughter in law because he saw how the second wife and her relatives of his family influenced his father into favoring them.

Without Yi Bang Won's drive to lead the nation, Sejong would never have inherited a stable and peaceful nation with a powerful king at the centre.

Sejong's policies of ruling by discussion and dialogue only work when there is absolute power with the King.No one would like to negotiate when they have the upper hand and power and the other party with no power.

Also people blame Bang won that he stole Jung Do Jeon's design while vilifying him, first of all the structure of Bureaucracy was totally redesigned by Bang Won to become king centrific and there were many things that were introduced in Joseon by Taejong for common people that were not any plans of Jung Do Jeon example the system where common people could interact with the King to tell him about their needs and difficulties, whereas as per Jung Do Jeon , his Sadeabu Ministers would decide what were needed for people and King will have to just put his seal on them. Taejong also encouraged and built up a strong military to safeguard Joseon. Not to mention , he encouraged Science and Technology to aid Joseon to a new future.

To all people who only see Yi Bang Won's ambitions and term him selfish, they need to be reminded that it was him who selflessly voluntarily went as hostage to Ming at the risk of his life.He was instrumental in rescuing his brothers, his father's second wife and her sons from last king of Goryeo custody risking his own life.

Of all the sons of Yi Song Gye he was the one who put himself at the forefront of revolution risking beheading by Treason by the Goryeo Government.

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dasa

January 14, 2016 at 7:28 PM

Not to forget when the revolution was all but over by the stalemate between Jung DO Jeon and his friend Jung Mong Ju, it was Bang Won who stepped up and eliminated the loyal but narrow sighted scholar Jung Mong Ju eventhough he knew that by doing that he would risk being shunned by his own father and the people of Goryeo, if all that he wanted was a good name and power, he would have asassinated him in secret without his direct involvment.Instead he stuck to his belief that revolution was needed by common people to protect them from corruption of nobles and it was their duty to protect them no matter who stands their way or no matter what damage it may inflict on him.

Last but not least I would like to say that Yi Bang Won became the leader the turbulent times needed. He focussed more on what was needed by people more than moral ambiguity.Yi Bang Won in retrospect is a mixture of ruthlessness of Winston Churchill who let London be bombed inspite of knowing the enemy plans beforehand in order to feign ignorance and win the war, Yi Bang won is also a mixture of idealism of Queen Elizabeth who believed that her duty for her nation was more important than her family and relations, who never married a person and instead married her duty to her nation.Yi Bang Won is also a mixture of the firm determination of scholar Chanakya of the great Maurya dynasty of India who himself brought a dynastic revolution like Jung Do Jeon and put a common man Chandragupta Maurya as King removing the powerful but corrupt Nanda Dynasty.

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43 dasa

January 14, 2016 at 7:24 PM

what i'm bout to say is someone else analysis from soompi which i agree on
Bang won most was the intention of Jeong Do Jeon to acquire all power to himself and his colleagues and friends that make up Sadeabu and discard the Yi family after using them to found Joseon. The King will be a puppet king with no real power just like the kings during Yi in Gyeom and Jo Min Su and so on......

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44 Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 8:13 PM

It would interesting if you would give insights from both sides instead of trying to defend him and repeating the same biased history that was written by his own people from your point of view.

Is there even a possibility that they are trying to justify killing his brothers, his in-laws, his son's in laws etc?

There were good and bad in both Bang-won and Jeong Do-jeon's plan.

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45 Kiara

January 14, 2016 at 9:56 PM

Lee Jiran: I will write a poem. A very warm poem. <3

Can I have your babies?

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earthna

January 14, 2016 at 10:29 PM

If you're willing to share with me, yes. I'm starting to feel that we have the same type.

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Kiara

January 15, 2016 at 6:36 AM

Since he is not a 21st century guy then I guess we could share lol.

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Adal

January 15, 2016 at 7:55 AM

Ha Ha!

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46 ha ji won

January 14, 2016 at 10:29 PM

Thanks kiara
Am sad about dat Later if d dragons will split, BY will b in support of BW while LBJ will b with JYJ. If it does! Which am so sad about although d love between brother and sister is there, and they will look out 4 each other.

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Commentcomment

January 15, 2016 at 3:26 AM

I dont think they will go with that.. the only reason lee bangji is with jdj is because of his sister, and his keeps on saying it until the recent episode, we know i tree he is jdj's bodyguard until jdj's death, so it means boonyi will side jdj not bangwon.. it has already been established in the drama that though both booyi and bangwon like each other they wouldnt allow those feelings to get in the way of their goals, the example would be the episode of lady min and bangwon's wedding..

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Kiara

January 15, 2016 at 6:41 AM

@ ha ji won

I think Commentcomment is right. Bong Yi follows Sambong and Bang Ji is his bodyguard. I don't think they will be separated from each other again.

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47 nara

January 14, 2016 at 11:56 PM

at this point in the story there is NO way LBW would be come a king and yet the words we heard were words of his own powerbeing lost alone NOT his father

a script is a text like any other you should analyze it like any other written text
which is what is important is what is written but also what is not

so the writers choosing not to include any words of LBW father or brother in the cliffhanger and only words of his own power means that the writers chose this moment to show LBW transition into a tyrant seeking power

you cannot decide what the text means without any regard to the text this is ABC is analyzing a written text which im sure all of you at least once had to do

again if the writers thought this way as LBW was concerned for his father and not himself they would have done it differently
there are rules and script writing as well as movies and dramas have a language
you cant ignore the text bc it dosnt sit right with your belief

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nara

January 15, 2016 at 12:12 AM

as for LBW being the only one

we have developed we now know better so we now know there were other option ppl then didnt know better they didnt know that there could be other option and they were kept small and silent

why is LBW search for power is ok and not JDJ at this point of the story
if you didnt know the result and looked at it for the first time with you 21 eyes would you still have chosen LBW?

there is no evidence that JDJ had search for power he didnt have time tobecome one LBW killed himbf that and all who thought that aking should have restrictions this is the characteristic of a tyrant

in history ALL tyrants started as idealist - not a good sign

if it walks like a duck

and we know from history that tyranny is bad that why tyranny a synonymous to absolute ruler developed to the meanings we have today

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shirayukihime

January 15, 2016 at 2:48 AM

why would you compare BW to this leaders today? He is different and the leaders today.They are both different. You can't compare both of their achievements because they live in different time. What important is the achievements and what he did good for the people... it's so unfair that a man like him being compared to the leaders of this 21st. Yes, people prefer it now. But King Taejong ruled during the turbulent times. Joseon is still hanging on the balance. Did you try to compare KIng Taejong to the goryeo kings? Did you try compare him to the kings of late Joseon dynasty? Did you know the cause of the fall of Silla Kingdom? Goryeo Dynasty and Joseon Dynasty? Just one answer: Weak kings leads to internal conflicts.. King Taejong is regarded as one of the best. But people won't accept the fact he's the best cause they compare him to these leaders now. Democracy was not existed before.. as long as there is hierarchy/caste system...so in that situation at the top you need a strong king to rule..You can't vote, if you can vote, commoners can't still vote..Do you know why?Because of the educated nobles..most of the government posts are occupied by the educated nobles.. You really need a strong king that cares for his people to rule..
King Taejong live in different time. we can't criticize him for who he is cause at the time of crisis that's what he needs.

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nara

January 15, 2016 at 3:06 AM

i compared LBW to all tyrants throughout time
they have the same character profile
LBW didnt liv outside of humans and joseon wasnt the only country in the world
if you compare LBW to other tyrant of the same time more or less you can see that his description fit the description of other kings that eliminated all their opponent

what im saying that we have developed since then and have abetter perspective of good and right if we go back to that time it means we havnt progressed at all

the truth is we have no way of knowing if JDJ plan would have succeeded in time bc he didnt get an opportunity

and although LBW did good things for the ppl being what he was it he did it as long as the ppl didnt revolt
as we know from other kingdoms from other countries when the ppl revolted the kings reacted severely

so although we dont know if JDJ plan would have worked in his hands
we also dont know how would have LBW reacted to a citizens revolt but probably not well
so his love for the citizen was conditioned on there full submissiveness which again bing us to the making of a tyrant

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Adal

January 15, 2016 at 8:04 AM

@ nara

I think you are neglecting the fact that some countries and some regimes need tyrants to rule and stabilize the country.

We all want to laud and cheer democracy, but the fact of the matter is that democracy is NOT a system that can work in every country. Let's take the modern day tyrannical rulers in Libya and Iraq for instance. When those presidents regimes were toppled, were those regions stable? Hell no! There's more conflict and chaos there than ever before.

I am a firm believer that Bang won did what he had to do to ensure that things went forward. If he became an absolute tyrannical ruler, it is because the situation called for it. I've always said, for there to be a King Solomon (one of the most glorious reigns in the history of Israel) there had to be a King David predecessor that killed a lot of his enemies to ensure a peaceful reign for his son. It's the way the world works.

nara

January 16, 2016 at 3:24 AM

im NOt neglecting im rejecting this idea
and have to say that a bit scared when i hear that some ppl think it is needed
i know that ppl here dont really want an absolute=tyranny governing but i think there is a bit of glorification of it
which is not good
it is NEVER needed that is exactly what i am saying
the development of countries that had tyranny was only in progress of countries and not ppl status andwe kow now that what actually really developed humans was the transition from monarchy to ministers governing
the problem with such development by tyranny that it is temporary and leans only on few individuals
to advance the world ppl ned to have an opportunity you never know where the next invention lies and for that you need all ppl to think and have the this freedom in oppressed regiment ppl are afraid to think therefor afraid to invent
there are so many research on that
the development of tyranny talks only about the advances of a country usually "technology" wise and always temporary the only constant development we see is after the industrial and since then we are continuously developing
i dont mean an invention or discovery here and there
and only in developed and developing countries

nara

January 16, 2016 at 3:32 AM

the phrase i was looking for and didnt know in english which summands my meaning is Human Capital - which didnt exist in monarchy therefor humans lost a lot of time in development

48 shirayukihime

January 15, 2016 at 2:54 AM

Do you think Lady hyobin will appear here? I wanna know what's Park Yoo-Na's role..she's beautiful.she must be Lady Hyo..

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shirayukihime

January 15, 2016 at 4:13 AM

park yoo na's face is similar to jun ji hyun...i take back what i said...i hope there's no lady hyo here....i'll go back to lady min..she's beautiful..

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Kiara

January 15, 2016 at 7:08 AM

I hope not. No more new characters please. Need more screen time for the main cast.

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shirayukihime

January 15, 2016 at 10:53 PM

I agree...But her name is in the character list.... i don't how they are going to fit everything in 20 ep... i hope they just focus more on how he run the government and stabilize it..

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49 KDramajjang

January 15, 2016 at 6:04 AM

Wowsa! This is getting reeaally interesting. Now I feel like I should go watch Tree with Deep Roots once more after it's all over, to absorb more.

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50 Kiara

January 15, 2016 at 7:44 AM

I think we might be taking this flower king thing a bit too far. Why are we so agitated by it? Lee Seong-gye (King Taejo) wasn't complaining about it.

Jung Do-jeon took on a lot of his responsibilities but Taejo was still credited for it. If I remember correctly, Taejo had health issues before and after Joseon was created.

In reality (Lee Seong-gye) King Taejo was not a flower king. He was very much involved in making decisions for the government. He is credited for establishing the new nation etc etc.
The more passionate and powerful Bang-won (King Taejong) surpassed him later in stabilizing the new nation etc imo. He also ruled for 18 years.

This revolution started with Jung Do-jeon's dream but he was killed and forgotten.

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Adal

January 15, 2016 at 8:13 AM

@ Kiara

What are the requirements of a Flower King that JDJ laid out that put everyone up in arms:

1) The King should have no private discussions only public ones - what does that mean? He can't have any private audiences to influence policies but everything has to be debated in open; this severely limits his power.

2) The King can have no wealth of his own - Why? I still don't see why the King or the royal family cannot have a separate moneys of their own. It means no independence, they will be at the mercy of the ministers and the prime minister's discretion for everything.

3) The King should study and me a master and Confucian beliefs - Good one.

4) No member of the royal family should be involved in politics - Again why? I know it is supposed to prevent coups and bloodshed, and ensure peace because said persons could negatively influence regimes and policy. But that means a waste of all the talented individuals who happened to be members of the royal family. They will in effect be quite useless. That is a shame.

5) The King would be a figure head or flower king. - What has changed between JDJ visions of the king and what is currently taking place? Next to nothing. The old Goryeo at it's weakest and later stage had weak kings who were manipulated by people around them. So this is nothing new. But in the context of the Lee family. Having no power is significant.

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Kiara

January 15, 2016 at 9:19 AM

Adal, I grew up in a small country ruled by monarchs and I would not want to go back to it.
I'll just answer your questions based on my experience if you don't mind.

Jung Do-jeon believes (in his apostate way) that the king exist for the people and not the other way around.

1. I think you answered that yourself. To limit his power.

2. Probably so he won't use the country's resources to acquire wealth for himself?
(The king in my country was making millions secretly allowing Chinese businessmen/women to enter and operate business in the country under his name. He was also making money for himself by secretly allowing Japanese fishermen to fish in our part of the ocean because the country didn't have the resource to patrol the area 24/7).

3. Good

4. Monopolizing power?
(In my country, the king was the ruler, the Crown Prince was Minister of Education, his other 3 sons had government posts too. Combined that power and we suffered from high taxes, high electric bills etc etc.

I'm not sure if I quite understand #5. I need to think on that. Apologies for the poor English. It's my 3rd language.

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Adal

January 15, 2016 at 10:34 AM

Nah. Your English is great! I would never have guessed it was your third language.

You have sound arguments and I appreciate your different perspectives on some of the issues I raised. One of the things I can conclude is that for every thing on earth there's a good side and a bad side.

Take #2 for instance - it prevents the King from making money off the country's assets, and makes him accountable to the country for everything he spends. While it is good in theory, on the flip side it exposes the leader to the censure of the public for every private or personal decision they make. For example when Kate Middleton and William were remodeling one of their homes because it was old and drafty, the British public nearly went berserk until it was revealed to the public that Kate Middleton was using her privatefunds (thank God she had that!) for the remodeling.

I also recall reading a biography of Queen Victoria (of England) and Albert. How, when they moved into one of their palaces after they recently wed, the whole palace was so drafty and cold, and was a disorganized mess, they couldn't even find the maids responsible for heating! Poor Albert came down with pneumonia! I couldn't help thinking that if these Royals had their own private funds, or private sources of income, she could've gotten the hell out of that drafty place and moved elsewhere. Thus I see the argument for and against Royals having their own sources of income.

As for item 4. True, the sons of the Royals could monopolize power, but maybe checks and balances could be put in place to ensure they pass the same exams that the nobles do in order to hold office or even join the military. I just keep thinking of the drama "Moon Embracing the Sun" how the country lost one of it's foremost scholars (Heo Yeom) because he married the princess and if they didn't have those rules, even though he was a member of the royal family, he could still have been useful to the king.

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Kiara

January 15, 2016 at 11:49 AM

Yes I agree. There is a good and bad side to everything. Even with our corrupt monarchs. They helped preserve our culture and identity. It's a beautiful thing and I hope that I can teach my children (with my imaginary husband Lee Jiran haha) respect, loyalty, unity and things that I've experienced as a child.

I think that when you grow up in that kind of corrupt monarchs it's natural to want something new and different even if you don't quite understand it.
I'd hop on Sambong's bandwagon for that but then I'll eventually see the corrupt in it too because no system is perfect.

2 Yes, I can see the good side of having private funds so thank you for pointing that out.

#4 I agree with you. Talented royals will be wasted with that kind of restriction. Sins of our fathers, sometimes we just can not escape it.

I'm really enjoying this kind of non hostile and open minded discussion. So thank you for that :).

shirayukihime

January 15, 2016 at 10:47 PM

I agree... but I think JDJ just want to exclude the royal cause there are royals that will challenge the prime minister rule..esp. now LBW..

shirayukihime

January 15, 2016 at 10:51 PM

I don't really understand JDJ. he should focus more how to improve the lives of the slaves and commoners.. slaves and illegitimate children couldn't even work as the government officials. commoners couldn't work in the government cause they are illiterate, and their family background need to be check. Unlike King taejong, he supported Jang Yeong shil...It's so annoying that they are fighting over who run the country... the reason why they will create the country is because to improve the lives of commoners instead they are fighting over who rule who...i hate the 5 rules..

nara

January 16, 2016 at 3:56 AM

@shirayukihime who rules is in direct relation to the slaves and commoners condition
like in election you decide who rules for the ppl
this is the fight - and its all for the ppl
i think he now is trying to establish a new way of governing and make a precedent for generations to come which didnt succeed